Men are Not Strictly Visual

Julia Pace Mitchell.  And yes,
hetero men want some of this.
A woman I know is currently a size six, formerly a size twelve or so, and now seeking to become a size two.  While she claimed up and down it's strictly for health reasons, she also slipped up and stated she's simply "accepted the fact that men are strictly visual creatures."

Um...no, they're not.

Now, I'm not going to weigh in on this too heavily because I'm not a guy and I can only speak from my experiences of interacting with men.  My father in particular stressed to me that concerning heterosexual men of worth, a woman has to be more than what meets the eye.  And the gay men I've known have been not so shallow with their tastes, despite the stereotypes.

While I've noticed that some men may start out judging only the visual, the moment their person of interest makes the wrong move, that pretty face/rocking body be damned.   Men also want to be listened to, comforted, appreciated, and even occasionally rescued.  And most men seek actual compatibility with a potential significant other.  They want someone who will read their poetry, listen to their music, hold them in their darkest hour, and have their backs in a jam.  More than simply being paired with an attractive mate, most men want to be loved and understood.  Because as time passes, looks fade, and contrary to popular belief, men know good and well they need more than looks to be able to deal with the same partner for decades.

Remember what Chris Rock said about life not being short, but long?  Especially if you make the wrong decision?

I for one have been thick, bony, everything in between.  Men have never NOT been interested in Moi.  Thanks to my father, I learned long ago that what truly draws people in are the intangible things: wit, personality, eloquence, experience, open-mindedness, fairness, kindess, and so on.  Women alone are not attracted to this qualities.  Women aren't the only ones seeking long-term companionship; in fact, I recall my former sociology professor Dr. Elena Ermolaeva quoting stats to our class which revealed American men tend to want marriage more than American women.

So I think some heterosexual women actually take comfort in the myth of male two-dimensionality.  I think it's a form of psychological projection; these women themselves have nothing to really offer anyone (or merely think they don't), so they tell themselves nothing's really expected of them in the first place aside for a thin body (depending on the time period) and a pretty face.  Not so.  This is the 21st Century.  Not every man is cozy with the thought of an uneducated partner who doesn't bring in a paycheck.  This recession mostly likely killed off the last shred of that archaic belief.

There are, of course, other things to consider, some of them very simple.  Some men need - not just want, but need - a woman who can cook.  There's a reason for the old adage about the way to a man's heart being through his stomach.  So if your ass is deliberately bony, rest assured it doesn't look good on your resume.

I invite male readers to speak up on this.  Do you feel you are strictly visual?  How do you feel when a man or woman assumes this about you?  What do you look for when considering a partner for a serious, long-term relationship?  What obstacles do you feel arise when people hang onto this sort of thinking?

Comments

  1. So I think some heterosexual women actually take comfort in the myth of male two-dimensionality. I think it's a form of psychological projection; these women themselves have nothing to really offer anyone (or merely think they don't), so they tell themselves nothing's really expected of them in the first place aside for a thin body (depending on the time period) and a pretty face.

    Girl, you know you done said something here. I co-sign on every bit of this. Shallow men want surface "perfection." Real men know better. I've heard plenty of times, "She was fine until she opened her mouth..."

    Honestly, ladies, men seek the same qualities in us as we do in them. Queens roll with KINGS, not jesters or the village idiot. Yes, I've said this before, and it is true in any case. For those women who think that all they have to offer is a bony frame and a face full of hair and teeth, then the only type of men they will attract are the ones who truly aren't worth a shit...and they shouldn't want those trifling scrubs anyway.

    Good men, real men, true MEN...want a woman they can build something with, and looks are a subjective bonus. And all of the guys I know aren't attracted to skinny women. Now that isn't even remotely a fraction of the male populace, but it's enough for me.

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  2. "Do you feel you are strictly visual?"

    Not strictly. Even though I'm a sucker for thickness, I've learned that who that woman is (what she's about) is equally important. There are beautiful women with fucked up hearts as there are handsome men with fucked up hearts.

    "How do you feel when a man or woman assumes this about you?"

    I don't blame women feeling that men are visual creatures. After all, we live in a matriarchal society that is obsessed with the female physical form more so than the female heart and mind. I may take it personally, but in truth I really can't.

    "What do you look for when considering a partner for a serious, long-term relationship?"

    Nothin at this point in time because I've accepted my role as a lonewolf for now. At this moment I have to look for who I am as a human being in this world.

    "What obstacles do you feel arise when people hang onto this sort of thinking?"

    A major obstacle would be accepting simple conclusions without asking why or questions said conclusions. We would take it in as being a part of the human existance. At the same time we build a "protective shell" keeping us from knowing others. We will isolate ourselves and turn down possibilities of finding love and compassion.

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  3. @ Brotha Wolf:

    You mean patriarchal society, not matriarchal. If this was really a matriarchal society there wouldn't be so much of measuring a woman's worth by her body rather than her mind. And things would descend from the mother rather than the father, as in the case of children inheriting their last name and being identified as illegitimate. If everyone knew who their mother was in a matriarchal society we'd have much fewer "illegitimate" children. I take issue with the term. I know who my mama is. I'm not illegitimate.

    I agree with this piece. Anyway, my journey to figure out what makes me happy has been turbulent as of late. And I'm a bit visual but I look for nice, wise, self-preserving, dependable and supportive men. And I provide the same to the best of my ability. But I'm also going to school and working toward my long-term wealth.

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  4. Do you feel you are strictly visual?

    I'm not strictly visual, but I'd be a bald face liar if I said looks weren't a major factor - especially before I've had a chance to get to know them as a person. There are certain physical aspects I like in a woman who I consider getting involved with, but I think that's the case with everybody. Are looks a deal breaker though? In many cases, no.

    How do you feel when a man or woman assumes this about you?

    I just let it roll off my shoulders, because, to an extent, it's true. But I think that it sets up this false dichotomy of men being mostly, or solely, visual while women are mostly, or solely, wrapped up in emotions/status. Ultimately, that dichotomy, more than anything else, upsets me, because in both instances the stereotypes are extreme and untrue.

    What do you look for when considering a partner for a serious, long-term relationship?

    Goals. Nothing is more important to me than when a possible partner has some kind of realistic focus or driving force in their life. Whether it be their chosen career, artistic pursuits, etc., as long as they're actively striving toward something they feel passionate about I can't help but start to fall for them. After that? Well I'm a pretty active guy (weight lifting, running, etc.), so being with someone who shares this interest is almost a must. They don't have to be as hardcore about it as me, but someone who can't even climb a flight of stairs without getting winded loses some major cool points. Ultimately, it's not a deal breaker but it is pretty important.

    Also, I can cook my own food, so that's no big deal.

    What obstacles do you feel arise when people hang onto this sort of thinking?

    I think most people of any value get past this nonsense, or simply ignore it, and hook up with people that they like for whatever reasons they want to be with them (physical, emotional, etc.).

    Girl, you know you done said something here. I co-sign on every bit of this. Shallow men want surface "perfection." Real men know better. I've heard plenty of times, "She was fine until she opened her mouth..."

    Um, no offense, but most men want the woman they're with to be stunningly beautiful. However, most men with any common sense realize that a beautiful woman with a bad attitude is never a better partner than an "average" looking woman who can hold an intelligent conversation and isn't a pain in the ass to be around. Now, if they if they can manage to pull a beautiful young woman with a pleasant disposition and half a brain, do any of us honestly think they'll go for her more "homely" counterpart? If the roles were reversed, would a woman?

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  5. "Good men, real men, true MEN...want a woman they can build something with, and looks are a subjective bonus. And all of the guys I know aren't attracted to skinny women. Now that isn't even remotely a fraction of the male populace, but it's enough for me."

    Ditto: All those superficial requirements fade if he and his mate have been together for any length of time. She will be just as fine to him at 60 as she was at 23; for the bloom of her beauty will be never be lost on his eyes. Married 30 years come this July and I see more splendor in my wife’s sweet countenance now than I did when we were 23. But it was her almond eyes (not her shape) that caught my attention. It was her smile and her soft-spoken demeanor that drew me. She was mature- she was very intelligent and self-assured. Over time we’ve bonded in grace; both she and I having aged since our first kiss. Her frame has expanded yes and so has mine; but I love her all the more.

    Now I cook and clean for myself (Mom didn’t want me to be on my own without being able to take care of myself), but I depend on her for so much more. I am utterly incomplete without her. If you expect your union to last more than 3-5 years, then you need more than just thick legs, a big butt and a winning smile. You need a viable foundation with which to build upon. Think of it in terms of a Basilica. It takes time to build up the proper arches- facades, cornices and supports long after the foundation has been laid. In some cases it takes many years just to get the external masonry right.

    Some older men become more accommodating and less discriminating as they age. A lot of men my age/race opt for a rounder figure; a ‘womanly woman’. I encourage my wife to eat whatever she wants. Let me worry about your figure I tell her. Others simply prefer superficiality over substance. If I were ever loosed from my present spouse (God forbid) my personal preference would still be for a thick womanly woman. (With the same qualities of course) This too would have to be for marriage because I’m not good at this Shackin' Up thing; I wouldn’t know how. I’m sure there are nice skinny women out there with a lot to offer, but in this area I guess I am very two-dimensional.

    At 53, I just don’t have time to plump a new wife up again; plus on top of that negotiate a new pre-nup worth tens of twenties of dollars. Now I prefer SUVs to cars. I love pasta but I hate okra; so why shouldn’t my preferences in a mate be just as discriminating? I’m a loner. I don’t go to clubs, nor do I entertain much; so I don’t come across many people critical of my life-choices. At my age I don’t really care what they think to tell you the truth. Besides I've been an artist for over 40 years; being visual is part of who I am.

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  6. Do I enjoy a pretty package? Yes. Strictly visual? No. Because I don't care how hot a guy is. The biggest turnoff for me is a stank attitude. Now a hot guy who is oblivious to how sexy he is and is humble about it, instant turn on.

    I think one of the biggest problems is that a lot of women (and queer men) don't know the difference between males and men. They are a completely whole different breed. Men, real men, have substance. They are about their business. They are looking for partners, equals, someone to complete them, to enhance them. K, your dad clearly a master in what I refer to as man-training.

    Men love it all, black, white, thin, full figured, long hair, short hair, young old, male, female, doesn't matter.

    Personality and confidence is key for a lot of men. A woman that is sure of herself and dresses well and takes pride in herself [doesn't mean she has to wear name brand or be a size 2], will attract men. A woman is funny, and charming and full of life, will appeal to most men.

    Something I've had to learn, if someone can't appreciate you for who you are for whatever reason be it looks, body type, whatever. They aren't meant for you. Count your blessings that you dodged that bullet and move on.

    Another thing I've learned is that you have to be content with yourself. No significant other is going to complete for you what you can't complete for yourself.

    I've actually been planning on writing a post on this very issue.

    And K, we might need to do a follow-up post on the difference between men and males because I think that distinction is what trips up a lot of folks.

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  7. @NeoProdigy:

    Bring it on, I would LOVE to read it!

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  8. Also....you and your readers might find this post of interest:

    http://neo-prodigy.livejournal.com/940782.html

    Might also be for Blasian Narrative as well.

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  9. Neo baby, you know your posts are also welcome here.

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  10. "You mean patriarchal society, not matriarchal. If this was really a matriarchal society there wouldn't be so much of measuring a woman's worth by her body rather than her mind. And things would descend from the mother rather than the father, as in the case of children inheriting their last name and being identified as illegitimate. If everyone knew who their mother was in a matriarchal society we'd have much fewer "illegitimate" children. I take issue with the term. I know who my mama is. I'm not illegitimate."

    Marona, I apologize... Thanks for making that correction. I wanted to point out that this is a society of male supremacy and privilege that devalues a woman's worth more than it cares to realize.

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  11. You are 100% correct. Looks matter but they are not the end all. JUST being pretty isn't going to cut it if there isn't much else happening.

    You said it. Initially yes, looks play a big part, and to be honest I couldn't be with a women who I didn't find physically attractive. But by the same token I couldn't be with a women who didn't have a good sense of humor or strong values and integrity. I think Men probably put more emphasis on the physical but not much more. Just ask a short guy :)

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  12. Men of substance want Women of substance, end of story.

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  13. Amen.

    The idea that men are just a heap of testosterone that furthermore encourages them to just be ruled by their genitals after a certain type of look is unfortunate.

    As you say men are equally longing for communication, understanding, companionship and all those qualities cannot be found in a woman's flesh or lack thereof. Any man looking for them there is one to be weary of!
    Not to say that attraction isn't important in a relationship but to realise that attraction is built around many things.

    I wish as we live in this increasingly youth and looks focused society we can stop to remember that like it or not we will all age and 'good looks' only lasts so long. We should find more important things to base our personal development on.

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  14. I would think more menfolk of quality would be vocal about disputing this dick & a smile reputation that fellas have. It reduces them to death above the neck and I can't imagine men of caliber wanting to be smeared with that nasty brush.

    I've been blessed to have known some incredible men in my life. They were smart, passionate, funny, compassionate, strong and vocal. They did not play that when it came to how they are viewed/perceived.

    I definitely believe that some hetero women feed into and promote the men as dogs trope. It gives them an excuse to not be grown ass women who own their personal life choices.

    Cuz you know if none of these men ain't shit, then what's a girl to do right?

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  15. The idea that men are just a heap of testosterone that furthermore encourages them to just be ruled by their genitals after a certain type of look is unfortunate.

    Exactly. Women like these perpetuate the problem, and then complain about it.

    I would think more menfolk of quality would be vocal about disputing this dick & a smile reputation that fellas have.

    They did. M. Gibson, Neo-Prodigy, jas0n, and Dr. Vagrant X all weighed in almost immediately, but then Blogspot had a massive 2-day meltdown which ate up several comments on various posts.

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  16. "Men also want to be listened to, comforted, appreciated, and even occasionally rescued. And most men seek actual compatibility with a potential significant other. They want someone who will read their poetry, listen to their music, hold them in their darkest hour, and have their backs in a jam. More than simply being paired with an attractive mate, most men want to be loved and understood. Because as time passes, looks fade, and contrary to popular belief, men know good and well they need more than looks to be able to deal with the same partner for decades."

    For some reason I didn’t save my last post so I can’t remember exactly what I said. But I alluded to my wife of 30 yrs. gaining weight and how I much prefer her thick shape now. But at 23 yrs. of age it was her eyes, her intelligence and her strong sense of self that wooed me; not her shape. My wife’s friend received her doctorate about 2 yrs. ago, but she’s as skinny as Angelina Jolie. She has self-esteem issues (which she tends to broadcast repeatedly). Moreover, her boastful- arrogant demeanor is distasteful to me, so I wouldn’t be attracted to her despite her intelligence and ‘glowing personality’. (Forgive my sarcasm)

    After 30 years, my wife is more than just a helpmeet- she’s my life. She does listen to my music- she has read my poetry, and she has indeed, held me in my darkest hour. But just as I’m attracted to certain cars and certain foods- certain genres of music and art; I concede (now at 53 yrs.) I’m attracted to a certain body type. I’m an artist of 40 years so I am visual to a degree.

    Conversely, it takes time to build and sustain such a relationship. I likened it to basilica. It takes years just to lay down and perfect a proper foundation, and another generation to fashion the supporting masonry. If the relationship endures, the bloom of her youth will inevitably fade; so there has to be more to the woman than just her parts (substance) or such a thing won’t last.

    “Behold, thou [art] fair, my love; behold, thou [art] fair...” Song of Solomon 4:1

    The writer waxes eloquent when marking the beauty that is external; but proceeds, to esteem the beauty that is internal as well.

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  17. So yeah, we're not strictly visual. Thank you for pointing that out. Physical attractiveness is generally important to us but there are lots of other things that are just as important.

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  18. Wow...all gone, huh? Oh well.

    Anyway, in summation, my point was that, more or less, men and women are the same. Men and women both like someone who, at the very least, looks pleasant enough that they won't jump out of the bed screaming when they wake up the morning after. And, those with any sense, like people of substance who can bring more to the table than just a pretty face. Also, substance trumps soulless, dimwitted beauty/attractiveness any day of the week.

    Also, if a man can't (not want, but physically cannot) cook his own food in this day and age he needs some serious help. Check to make sure that he can tie his own shoes and brush his own teeth, ladies.

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  19. Just so you know, I was trying to be humorous about the cooking thing.

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  20. http://health.yahoo.net/news/s/hsn/politicsmaytrumplookspersonalityinmattersoftheheart

    relevant to our interests

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  21. @Ank:

    Sure ya' were, sure ya' were... ;)

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  22. Seems like these days men know more about cooking than women. At least that's my experience. Actually come to think of it none of the women I ever dated could cook. My wife can't cook either. No biggie since I can.

    Anyway, I think in a lot of ways men and women are the same but there are a lot of differences as well. I think we struggle more with the kinds of things that you see Schwarzenegger in trouble for. Not that we all do that, but it seems like that kind of temptation plagues our gender more than it does women.

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  23. Not that we all do that, but it seems like that kind of temptation plagues our gender more than it does women.

    See, I don't think it does. Keep in mind:

    "Most cheaters – a whopping 60% -- have been in a relationship for at least five years. But 18% of newlywed women and 12% of newlywed men admitted to committing infidelity within the first year of marriage (British survey, 2005)."

    The fact is, when you're a woman, you get hit on all the time, every which way. And whenever your S.O. is pissing you off, men in particular can sense it right away and immediately line up to say, "I told you so" and how they would "never do a thing like that."

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  24. @ Dr. Vagrant X

    Yeah-huh! I just needed an excuse to write, "So if your ass is deliberately bony, rest assured it doesn't look good on your resume."

    *chuckles lamely*

    Ha...ha?

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  25. hm, well then either we aren't as good at hiding it or we're under more scrutiny, because it's always men who are on TV apologizing.

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  26. hm, well then either we aren't as good at hiding it or we're under more scrutiny, because it's always men who are on TV apologizing.

    Ironically, male privilege is the main reason for this. Remember, privilege deludes, and male privilege has deluded men into thinking that women are dumber, weaker, and more likely to fall in love at first sight and be mindlessly loyal than men.

    This is why men roll their eyes when a woman goes through their phone and their Facebook account, but it never occurs to them that they should probably be doing the same damn thing. She goes through your shit, you go through all her shit.

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  27. So you're going with the "men are too stupid to catch us" explanation. OK.

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  28. No, not stupid. More like vulnerable from privilege.

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  29. @ Jas0nburns:

    Privilege hinders you. It doesn't necessarily make you stupid if you have privilege. In fact some people wield privilege while being exactly aware of it and the damage it does to other people. They just don't want things to change b/c it benefits them solely.

    Of course, they are arguably weak and worse for it. It deprives them of critical thinking skills, having another manner in which they can question themselves as human beings and even more fundamental self-questioning. It deprives them of empathy. And that's one of my biggest issues with most men. But I get it, they can't really know what it feels like to be a woman, cisgender to be exact, to be treated as less than. Many do not know what it's like to be terrified, to feel you lack self-autonomy. Perhaps if you're MOC you have some similar experience. If you're otherwise marginalized, such as being queer, dis/abled, transgender, poor and so on.

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  30. Perhaps if you're MOC you have some similar experience.

    He's white.

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  31. @ Ank:

    Oh, wasn't aware. That's why I said "perhaps." But he may otherwise feel marginalized, but still have some privileges like most people.

    Anyway, it reminds me of this article on Yahoo where fans were claiming Lady Gaga was guilty of plagiarism. And supposedly her response was that she wasn't stupid. Which I thought didn't even address the claim. Plagiarism has nothing to do with stupidity. It just means you're taking credit for the work of someone else. It's dishonest. And it could mean you're taking advantage of the relative invisibility of other music artists. Doesn't make it stupid. In fact, I'd say it indicates something far worse than mere stupidity.

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  32. I don't feel marginalized. Which is why I try to empathize with those that do. I don't really have first hand experience though.

    But yes, I think the ability to be self-questioning is a very valuable trait.

    I don't know how male privilege plays a role in this discussion, I'm not sure I agree with Ank's assessment. I think actual differences in the sexual impulses of men and women play a greater role in all of this. I think men have to struggle with certain impulses that women don't really understand in order to maintain our families. To say it another way, Some things that seem to come naturally to women are actually quite difficult for men to achieve. A lot of things we value as a society fall under that umbrella.

    from psychology today:
    "The stereotype about the sex-starved man and the disinterested woman may be more than just a cliche. As it turns out, the instant a woman enters a secure relationship, her sex drive begins to plummet. Four years in, a German study found, fewer than half of women wanted regular sex. And after 20 years, only 20 percent did.

    Among men, libido held steady no matter how long they'd been in the relationship. Researchers provide an evolutionary explanation—women's sex drive is initially high to facilitate pair bonding. Meanwhile, desire for tenderness showed the opposite trend. Ninety percent of women craved tenderness, but of men who'd been in relationships for ten years, only 25 percent said they hoped for the same from their partner."

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  33. @ jas0n

    Could you provide some studies on this topic from Asian, African, and South American scientists?

    I for one am getting sick of all these Western studies touting the sexless woman. Anyone who's perused the fanfiction world knows women of all ages have healthy libidos. Dissatisfaction is not the same as disinterest. When women talk about sexlessness, we talk about not being satisfied and frequent disappointment. We never talk about NOT wanting sex, and when an anorgasmic woman enters the convo, she's often concerned & eager to change her situation.

    Male privilege - esp. in the Western world - allows men to hide behind studies blaming the flawed female libido. It's similar to white privilege in America. When POC are consistently at a socioeconomic disadvantage, it's their own damn fault. When heterosexual women in the West consistently complain about being unsatisfied in bed, it's their own damn fault.

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  34. "Male privilege - esp. in the Western world - allows men to hide behind studies blaming the flawed female libido."

    I don't remember making a value judgement of any kind regarding the female libido. There is no blame to be placed on anyone. Some things just are the way they are and that's it. In some ways the desires of (hetero) men and women are going to be at odds with one another It's not for you or I or anyone else to say whats right or wrong with the way the opposite sex operates. We aren't the same, and that's fine with me. I'm sure our differences exist for good reason and all you can really do is try to navigate them on a case by case basis and do what works.

    "t's similar to white privilege in America. When POC are consistently at a socioeconomic disadvantage, it's their own damn fault. When heterosexual women in the West consistently complain about being unsatisfied in bed, it's their own damn fault."

    I actually shy away from these comparisons generally because at the root of it, race is a social construct and racial differences aren't real in a biological sense. That's just not the case with gender. Gender differences are real and you can't just explain everything away by blaming male privilege.

    "Could you provide some studies on this topic from Asian, African, and South American scientists?"

    I just did a quick google search to find some data I knew I had read somewhere. I don't think it's common practice to reveal the race of the people who collect this data. The study could have been done in India for all we know.

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  35. @ Ank and jas0nburns:

    Mostly in reaction to what jas0nburns has said, we have way too much history of Western society trying to explain why women are not like men. Women are marked, men are assumed the normal and average among us. I don't buy this whole idea of female and male sexual impulse being so different. In fact, I've recently learned in sexology studies that men have some hormonal tendencies similar to women. Men do experience something along the lines of menopause, but it is not very much paid attention to. For obvious reasons.

    Also, nothing about human nature is natural. Society makes us. We are raised to fit into our particular societies. It goes across so many different realms. You would be surprised by the division of labor in language and negotiation.

    Also, my understanding of what happens to couples over time is that sex diminishes. On average. It just happens. So this idea that only the woman's libido is affected seems incomplete to me. It takes two to tango.

    The idea that men have to "struggle" more so than women with certain impulses reminds me of what I learned about how heterosexuality has developed over time. One thing that seems constant is this belief that men require more work to "reign in" their impulses than women. In fact I believe there is more conditioning of women to suppress whatever impulses they have in most western societies. This is certainly true of how women were to adhere to the ideals of Pure Womanhood in England back in the day.

    Women's sexuality and representation of female bodies, especially outside of reproductive health studies, is very sparse in US textbooks. I still believe that even if not explicitly noted many people implicitly observe the idea that women are best when silent and not seen.

    I could provide sources to some readings of interest at a later time. I need to find my reader.

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  36. Oh duh it says "German study". I can read I promise. Anyway I personally don't discount scientific studies based on the nationality of the researchers. But that's just me.

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  37. @ Ank:

    Speaking of fanfiction, I started writing fanfiction involving my conception of sexual relations when I was in middle school. Possibly earlier than that. I had a little notebook that I would write in. I kept it secret from my mom. And I remember talking to some girls from summer camp and I wasn't the only one writing about sex at that age. And you know, me being the weird girl I was I would combine my interest in sex or relationships with my interest in anime, manga, etc. So, I'd imagine things like having Mew Two (from pokemon) as a lover. XD So I for one can speak for my own interest in sex or at least exploring it through literary pursuits. Fanfiction is a wonderful thing. As are anime and manga. :)

    Also, we women love making homosexual pairings of some of the greatest men in science fiction and fantasy. From Kirk/Spock to Merlin/Arthur. I'm particularly fond of the second pairing when done right.

    Also, if you're familiar with most yaoi and other forms of sexually explicit manga and graphic novels then you know women love it. And for me personally, although I find some things troubling in hentai I tend to prefer it to mainstream porn. I also like checking out porn from other countries. And there are some interesting indie porns out there. I have Blasianbytch to thank mostly for getting me into that.

    But totally agree with you Ank that women are sometimes blamed for their inability to have an orgasm or for not being satisfied in bed. At least in the US. But so much of what the media and society tries to teach women about sex is geared towards men's pleasure. I mean, look at those magazines that tell women to lose weight, how to look great, how to please a man, etc. The list goes on. Not all of it is bad, but a lot of things distract women from wanting to know what they want in a relationship and from learning how to obtain what we deserve.

    If I could I would set those magazines at the register on fire. I hate looking at them. But they're right there in front of you all the time.

    One thing I learned about how some women look at each other, in an Asian American studies course no less, is that when we evaluate each other sometimes we only see what men would value in other women. The male gaze is so pervasive that even we internalize it not just in the way we act and address ourselves but in the way we address other women.

    That's something that I have come to realize and it disturbs me. One of my missions is that in forming new friendships with other women, I hope that our interactions do not have to involve other men so often. You know, Bechdel Test style. XP

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  38. Also, you quoted a british survey unthread to help prove your point. I don't think it shows much integrity to disregard the study I posted.

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  39. "Also, nothing about human nature is natural. Society makes us. We are raised to fit into our particular societies."

    Society is a product of human nature. Humans are social animals. There is nothing "un-natural" about society. And even if it did make sense to say society was unnatural. To say that society is the ONLY thing that compells human behavior is going too far. There are always multiple factors at play. Society is a factor, and so is biology. It's nature + nurture, not one or the other. That debate is dead.

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  40. @marona

    Do you feel that women are made to feel that they need to supress themselves generally in today's society? Sexually or otherwise? Or maybe as some have said, there is nothing to supress either way because we are just acting out our roles in society, as if we have no intrinsic nature.

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  41. jas0nburns, all that study you quoted is telling me is that those women are not getting enough foreplay. Not liking bad sex is not equivalent to not liking sex.

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  42. If women were naturally hard-wired to be so frigid after marriage or being in a long-term relationship...can someone explain to me why more women in long-term relationships/marriages cheat more often than men? If it was truly against our nature, we wouldn't be able to do that at all. Period. Just like it's not in human nature to sprout wings form our anuses and fly, therefore, no human has ever sprouted wings from their anuses and flew.

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  43. We're getting off topic here, so I'm going to wrap this convo up with this:

    jas0n, the reason I brought up the nationality of the scientists is that when I was studying Psychology of Women, my professor showed us a study on PMS in the West and how white Western women were basically imagining some physiological symptoms to justify becoming a "demon" every month. Some made all sorts of claims, even to how their perfume even smelled differently on them during that time of the month. Meanwhile, scientists who studied women around the world came up with vastly different results, concluding that in any society where women felt they could not express anger or any other negative emotions regularly, they bottled them up to unleash once a month with social immunity. Mind you, I will be the first to say the back aches, bloating, and cramps are annoying, but enough to become a truly heinous bitch.

    Same here. That German study doesn't tell you about women across the world; it tells you about the women studied. The British study I quoted, however, unfortunately reflected complaints by women almost across the board. And that's the difference. Your study absolves men, saying it's just natural for women to lose interest in sex after a while. Women don't lose interest in sex. We lose interest in the people we're fucking, often because they're not listening. They're not following instructions in bed, and they don't turn us on out of bed. But we don't lose interest in sex; the clitoris is more sensitive than the head of a penis, and an orgasm can last up to an hour. And in a study on multiple orgasms, the record was fifty in a row. Women love sex; we have strong urges, we have strong impulses, we love the big O, and we like getting the big O consistently...and in heterosexual sex, therein lies the chief problem. Despite the endless posturing and chest-beating, most men are not great lovers. Sex with them is like the lottery; you MIGHT get lucky, but consistent, mind-shattering orgasms are not to be expected. But rather than accept this and make concerted efforts to improve, most men would rather buy into the notion that women just aren't as sexual as they are (which conveniently justifies male infidelity). And some men, white men in particular, obsess over penis size and assume that's what it all boils down to.

    Not so.

    Married women have it the worst because the stakes are higher - shared finances, children, familial investment, etc. While your average 21st Century woman's first instinct is to simply replace an unsatisfactory lover, a married woman can't do so without breaking up her family. But make no mistake: just because her husband's not hittin' it anymore, doesn't mean the pool boy isn't, or Luke in accounting isn't, or her college sweetheart who just moved back into town a month before.

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  44. Lastly, the comparison between white privilege and male privilege is valid because it boils down to privilege. I'm sorry, jas0n, but as a white heterosexual man who's admitted to "not seeing" patterns before, I'm really not expecting you to fully understand. But sometimes, having a man who doesn't listen/can't understand is a lot like having a white friend who doesn't listen/can't understand. Both are shielded by their privilege to certain truths and both feel inconvenienced by being made aware of certain inequalities. Neither wants to hear that they have to change or improve in some way. And neither wants to hear that what they believe/have been told is a lie.

    Just a POC will often sugarcoat things for a white friend, a heterosexual woman will sugarcoat things for the man she's with, and both do so to avoid making waves. It's easier to say, "I'm just not feeling sexual" rather than say, "I'm tired of working the second shift, you don't spend enough time with the kids, you're not paying enough of the bills, you don't do enough housework, you don't do it well, and you've become extremely boring to talk to. Furthermore, you're not a great kisser, you don't stay hard long enough, you're not good at eating pussy, you have a lousy sense of rhythm, you say the tackiest things in bed, you've been rubbing my clit the wrong way for years despite my directions; I'm tired as hell of faking all these orgasms, and if my parents didn't like you so much and I hadn't wasted all these years investing in this marriage to you and having kids, I would get rid of you in a heartbeat."

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  45. " we have way too much history of Western society trying to explain why women are not like men. Women are marked, men are assumed the normal and average among us."

    wouldn't it be more accurate to say we have a history of research showing and attempting to explain marked differences between the sexes? If there is a general value judgment based on sex differences, i would consider that a failing on the part of whoever is making such an interpretation. But attempting to deny the very real differences between genders on the basis that recognition of said differences marginalizes women is wrongheaded not to mention doomed to failure. I would rather see equality reached through an acknowledgement of and real appreciation for our differences.

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  46. That's quite a list of demands. Maybe it's a female privilege to feel comfortable making such demands of a partner in the first place. I certainly wouldn't dream of making any such demands of someone I was with. I have never in my life expected any woman to go out of her way to please me in bed. Or in any other aspect of life. All I have ever required of any woman is her company and faithfulness.

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  47. " jas0n, but as a white heterosexual man who's admitted to "not seeing" patterns before, I'm really not expecting you to fully understand"

    That's not fair and you know it. Admitting a failure to fully understand something is a show of vulnerability. It's disappointing that you would take advantage of that just to "win" a debate. Oh well.

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  48. ""I'm just not feeling sexual" rather than say, "I'm tired of working the second shift,...."

    I see, so rather than acknowledge the fact that you have a lower sex drive than your husband you think it's a better idea to berate him (or silently resent him) for not meeting your expectations. Beyond ridiculous. Part of having a high sex drive is that you tend to overlook certain faults of the person your with. These faults would become more important as your sex drive decreases. So the fact that you need a man to meet a certain set of criteria BEFORE you'll fuck him is crystal clear evidence that you don't even begin to approach anything similar to male wiring when it comes to sex. We ignore all your bullshit because we want to fuck you so bad. When you start ignoring all our faults just to get us in bed THEN i'll believe you when you say your sex drive is equal to ours.

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  49. "I'm sorry, jas0n, but as a white heterosexual man who's admitted to "not seeing" patterns before, I'm really not expecting you to fully understand."

    why don't you say what you really man? "shut up white boy, we aren't interested in what you have to say."

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  50. "When you start ignoring all our faults just to get us in bed THEN i'll believe you when you say your sex drive is equal to ours. "

    That totally reminds me of Ankh's post about how men think women reclaiming their sexuality means they'll automatically have lower standards in men, thus making it easier for inept men to use women as cum-dumpsters.

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  51. @ jas0n,

    Admitting a failure to fully understand something is a show of vulnerability. It's disappointing that you would take advantage of that just to "win" a debate.

    This isn't a "debate" to me - it's a discussion. I'm not trying to win here; I'm simply trying to explain the female side of things and you are reacting in a very typical male manner, thereby proving my point.

    MG nailed it with this: Not liking bad sex is not equivalent to not liking sex.

    Exactly. We're not saying we don't want sex. We're just saying we want good sex. Believe me, women are willing to ignore bullshit for good sex. When I worked in domestic violence, I saw women who put up with a LOT because their husband/boyfriend/whoever was really hot and knew how to make them come consistently.

    The reason hetero women arent's so quick to jump into the sack with men is that we're often skeptical as to whether or not it'll be worth it. There's a very good chance he's going to come at the first sight of our naked breasts. But what about us? We have needs too, but that's the very thing: needs have to be met. It's not enough just to roll around with someone. We want to reach completion as well.

    Some indicators: If a man is not a good listener out of bed, chances are he's not a good listener in bed. If a man is mediocre kisser, then that often spells all kinds of disaster for when it comes time orally interact with other parts of the body. How a man moves out of bed (e.g., walking, running, dancing, etc.) says about how he moves in bed. Women tend to pay very close attention to these things.

    Connecting back to the original post (which everyone really needs to start doing): men and women are not strictly visual. Other traits are necessary for a more complete attraction. Once again, a person can be your physical ideal, but then fuck up the whole vibe with the wrong word. Yes, for the sake of good sex, people will overlook some serious flaws, but even so, there are still limits to what people will overlook; women just tend to be more vocal about that. If a woman can consistently give herself earth-shattering orgams with her own fingers and/or a vibrator, then at some point she's going to ask why she should engage in inconsistently satisfying sex with a man who doesn't listen, and who brushes off her desires/expectations as being unrealistic (much like POC's desires/expectations to live in an egalitarian meritocracy have been brushed off). Why be with a man who thinks your needs don't matter simply because he isn't fulfilling them?

    why don't you say what you really man? "shut up white boy, we aren't interested in what you have to say."

    Stop whining and listen. Really listen; you're making this harder than it needs to be. You can't learn if your lips are moving, remember?

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  52. @ Martia

    That totally reminds me of Ankh's post about how men think women reclaiming their sexuality means they'll automatically have lower standards in men, thus making it easier for inept men to use women as cum-dumpsters.

    Bingo.

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  53. @Ankh:

    "I'm tired of working the second shift, you don't spend enough time with the kids, you're not paying enough of the bills, you don't do enough housework, you don't do it well, and you've become extremely boring to talk to. Furthermore, you're not a great kisser, you don't stay hard long enough, you're not good at eating pussy, you have a lousy sense of rhythm, you say the tackiest things in bed, you've been rubbing my clit the wrong way for years despite my directions; I'm tired as hell of faking all these orgasms, and if my parents didn't like you so much and I hadn't wasted all these years investing in this marriage to you and having kids, I would get rid of you in a heartbeat."

    I'm using this in my next novel. You've been warned. Never seen it put out there so bluntly. Much props, chica.

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  54. When it comes to female orgasm here's what I think.
    You need a man who's interested in doing his part to make sure it happens. But you also need a woman who is relaxed and comfortable/turned on and all that. In other words it takes two to tango. If you're the type of girl that needs a little extra effort and you find yourself with a man who isn't interested in putting the time in than you should find someone who is. I've been with women who come every time and I've been with women who never did. In my experience this seemed to have more to do with what they had going on than anything I was or wasn't doing. Anyway here's my problem with your approach. You as a woman have no comprehension of what it feels like to be under pressure to perform sexually. Talk about privilege. You have no idea what it seeks like to know you have let someone down in bed. It sucks. Every man knows what that's like. Pleasing women sexually is a huge part of the satisfaction of actually having sex. A lot of men wouldn't admit that but if you don't believe me watch any porno. Watch how the "actress" screams in pleasure. That's not a coincidence, it's a big part of the fantasy. We want to please you. I think any situation where that isn't happening is just as much of a let down to the man as it is the woman. If not
    More so.

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  55. "Seeks like" should read "feels like."

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  56. You have no idea what it seeks like to know you have let someone down in bed. It sucks.

    First of all, jas0n, thank you for saying this rather than doing the usual chest-beating. Admission of failure is the first step; the problem is, some men think it's the only step. It's not.

    Yes, both people need to be relaxed; that requires acceptance - complete acceptance. Which means neither person can cling to unrealistic expectations of physical perfection, and women are under far more pressure to appear physically perfect. Reality of a woman's body should be a huge part of the male fantasy, and right now, especially in the West, it's not.

    You as a woman have no comprehension of what it feels like to be under pressure to perform sexually. Talk about privilege.

    There's no privilege there. Historically, men have reacted to their own feelings of inadequacy with acts of extreme sexism towards women - foot binding, genital mutilation, lobotomy, you name it - thereby punishing/controlling women to help alleviate their own failures/insecurities.

    Thus the fragility of the hetero male ego is a huge hindrance to sexual fulfillment, because hetero women know that hetero men won't react well to honesty. For example, you don't all have huge dicks (nor do you need them). The ones who do often don't know what to do with them. But for some reason, most of you want to be TOLD you have them, and it all goes downhill from there. Once we realize you're the kind of man who needs to be told lies, we can't relax and be ourselves.

    The best course is communicate openly, honestly, and keep ego out of it. The most pleasure I've ever experienced with a man came when, after several hours, he finally shut the fuck up and did exactly what he was told - no bickering, no questioning, no posturing, no "taking initiative" - just obeying. Complete sublimation of ego, including not trying to understand why one thing succeeded where another failed. He just performed first and asked questions later.

    Since you seem hell-bent on discussing this, answer me something. One of our biggest complaints is the male inability to follow simple directions. In your opinion, why is this so difficult for men?

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  57. A lot of men wouldn't admit that but if you don't believe me watch any porno. Watch how the "actress" screams in pleasure. That's not a coincidence, it's a big part of the fantasy.

    Heheheheheheheh - that's a big part of our fantasy too.

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  58. "There's no privilege there. Historically, men have reacted to their own feelings of inadequacy with acts of extreme sexism towards women"

    Historically, yes you're correct. However in the modern western world it is a privilege by any definition. Hmmm can't seem to see your own privilege, why does that sound familiar? ;)

    "and women are under far more pressure to appear physically perfect. Reality of a woman's body should be a huge part of the male fantasy, and right now, especially in the West, it's not."

    most of that is between you and society. it rarely has anything to do with the guy actually in bed with you. If the media makes you feel bad about your thighs that's something you need to get over on your own. The guy in bed with you probably doesn't care.

    "One of our biggest complaints is the male inability to follow simple directions. In your opinion, why is this so difficult for men?"

    I'm not sure, I have never been one to shy away from asking for directions when i'm lost. IMO there is no single way to "please women" Every women is different so to me there it is no shame in asking a woman what she wants and how. You're saying men don't know this but I find that odd. You can never learn anything in terms of "what to do" from one woman and apply that to the next one. It won't work. I mean some girls want you to be delicate as a feather and some won't be satisfied until you pull a belt sander out of the dresser. So I just ask if it seems like what i'm dong isn't working.

    I think most guys must think that it's a skill you learn like fishing or basketball or something. Like there's one way to do it right, and that they shouldn't need any help to be "good at it." So their ego's i'm sure get all tangled up in that. But seriously I had to learn that the hard way too. I'm not sure most women know how vastly different they are from one another. Maybe if you guys could make us feel like it's OK to be a little lost at first and that's normal, that would help with the ego thing.

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  59. Ankhesen Mié said...
    Since you seem hell-bent on discussing this, answer me something. One of our biggest complaints is the male inability to follow simple directions. In your opinion, why is this so difficult for men?

    I remember Will Smith’s words in, ‘Men in Black’ when he mistakes a woman’s plea for help as a sexual come-on. Instinctively he tells her he has to do the driving. “He” has to be in charge. Which translates into, “I’m not willing to listen, nor will I be submissive in the bedroom.”

    From the script:
    "Female Coroner: No, but maybe you could take me with you instead.
    Smith: Damn, you do start fast, don't you?
    Female Coroner: I'd really like to go with you... now.
    Smith: And exactly why is that?
    Female Coroner: There's something I need to show you.
    Smith: Slow down, girl. You ain't got to hit the gas like that.
    Female Coroner: You don't understand. You really need to see this.
    Smith: I will, I will. One thing, I got to drive. It's not some macho trip. I'm saying that's the way I get down."

    Men forget (or ignore) the fact that in a successful relationship you must be “submissive to each other”. Sometimes that’s hard for Western men to understand. (Especially white men) But I’ve been trained quite well in my marriage. Her strengths compliment the areas that I am weak in and vice-versa. So it’s easy to be submissive without compromising my sense of masculinity. Ego has no place in a marriage if it is to last.

    My wife is my partner ‘in all things’. I do not walk ahead of her but rather we walk side by side. I’ve fathered 4 children with my pee-pee and never once in my marriage has my Mrs. made any mention of my size; because frankly it didn’t matter. This organ merely serves as a means for us to become “one flesh”. I’ve never understood this preoccupation with penises, either with the white male or the young black man for that matter. These young men have some very serious problems.

    It takes two to tango yes, but it takes time to learn to Tango well. The man doesn’t always have to lead, as both have a role to play in the dance. Ostensibly there’s a natural give and take so that both the Masculine and the Feminine converge as one. Couples who have been together for a long time can develop a sync that is unlike anything in nature. Moreover, it takes time to develop a sexual knowledge/rhythm with your partner. It takes communication and openness. An environment must exist where you can express each other’s needs without fear or judgment.

    You hear people speak of couples who’ve been together so long that they can finish each other’s thoughts. So it is with the sexual act. The man must be receptive to his partner’s needs. This means putting her desires above his own and listening. He must learn to be attentive and sensitive to her wants both in and outside of the bedroom. That means doing the housework if need be. (Watch Debra…)

    Being more supportive; taking care of the kids, giving her respite after a long hard day. Paying the bills and managing the household. You’d be surprised what that kind of support can do for a woman’s libido. Now I could be wrong. I haven’t dated in a long long time, so there is much I can't speak on.

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  60. @ M. Gibson

    There's not enough "thank you" in the world.

    @ jas0n

    I'm not sure most women know how vastly different they are from one another.

    No, no...we do, that's why we don't understand why more men aren't willing to just follow directions.

    Jas0n, these studies which come out claiming that the female body is the problem are merely the new form of genital mutilation and foot-binding. This is how to keep the negative focus on women; tell them their very bodies are "naturally flawed" in some way, and that's why they're not enjoying sex with a negligent lover. Call them frigid, sexless, or whatever name you can to make sure they feel that a man's unwillingness to listen and inability follow directions is the woman's own fault.

    Notice that I'm not saying anything negative about male bodies, but their attitudes. A healthy man's ability to please a healthy woman has nothing to do with hormones, dick size, or even impulses. It's about his attitude.

    most of that is between you and society. it rarely has anything to do with the guy actually in bed with you...The guy in bed with you probably doesn't care.

    Bullshit. Men are more likely to screw anything - this is true - but that does not mean they hold all female bodies in the same regard, or are willing to overlook anything for the sake of getting laid. They're not.

    Neither are women, but again, we tend to be more honest about that.

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  61. jas0n said, "I'm not sure, I have never been one to shy away from asking for directions when i'm lost."

    Basically, you're saying you're a good listener. Are you sure? Our discussion on this post indicates otherwise.

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  62. " but that does not mean they hold all female bodies in the same regard, or are willing to overlook anything for the sake of getting laid. They're not."

    I didn't say we did. But if a guy is actually in bed with you already, you aren't likely to scare him off with the a couple stretch marks or a little cellulite. I mean if we're in bed with you chances are we already think you're hot. if we didn't well, that's not the kind of guy you should be in bed with to begin with.

    "Basically, you're saying you're a good listener. Are you sure? Our discussion on this post indicates otherwise."

    Incentive is everything. But I have been listening, have you? You've made some good points and I will take them into consideration. For the record, I am happy to defer to you in racial discussions as I feel you are much more informed in that arena than I am. I don't feel that same deference is in order here. Having a vagina doesn't give you the moral high ground.

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  63. "Having a vagina doesn't give you the moral high ground."

    But it means she knows more about being a woman than you do! So you'll "defer" when Moi talks about black/non-white experience, but not when she talks about female experience? hmm... Ugh, what the hell, Jas0n? I've noticed that men say things like that to shut women up.

    @Ankh

    Thanks so much for this post (well, more for the comments). You've been putting your finger on things that I've thought about but not discussed with anyone. I remember whenever I came across some comment or article saying women are just not really sexual/don't want sex (usually men TELLING women that they don't want sex) I would feel so angry, but no really discuss it- well, I'm shy about that stuff in real life anyways.

    But it's so true: "Oh his wife just doesn't care about sex, so the poor thing has no choice but to cheat/marry a younger woman" or "she's not giving him a basic human need!" I don't remember the name of the movie, but one trailer really disgusted me: It showed this guy racing home from work, trying to get there before she put her sweatpants on. In this case, sweatpants= not sexy, so obviously she won't sleep with him because she's a boring/asexual/probably nagging wife.

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  64. I realize my usage of "Moi" didn't make any sense. Sorry.

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  65. @M. Gibson...

    I want to bow down and kiss your feet for being so eloquent and honest about the root of what marriage is supposed to be. But since you're legally shackled and I don't kowtow, I will simply thank you for your words. Would that more couples figure out this one little thing...better yet, take the TIME to discover it.

    @ jas0n,

    I'm not sure most women know how vastly different they are from one another.

    Oh baby, we know. Do you think just because every woman has a pussy that we all come with the same instruction manual? An '08 Lexus will start right up, but a '72 Olds might need to be coaxed.

    Every women is different so to me there it is no shame in asking a woman what she wants and how. You're saying men don't know this but I find that odd. You can never learn anything in terms of "what to do" from one woman and apply that to the next one. It won't work. I mean some girls want you to be delicate as a feather and some won't be satisfied until you pull a belt sander out of the dresser.

    You're contradicting yourself. Maybe try again tomorrow.

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  66. "But it means she knows more about being a woman than you do! So you'll "defer" when Moi talks about black/non-white experience, but not when she talks about female experience? hmm... Ugh, what the hell, Jas0n? I've noticed that men say things like that to shut women up."

    Agreed, and I think that if you went back over this thread you'd find that ank spends a great deal more time acting as if she knows more about what it means to be a man than I spend acting like I know what it's like to be a woman. I saw this as a discussion about the differences and similarities between genders. What does it say about you all that you assume this discussion is all about you? (women) We have been talking about men here just as much, yet I should still defer? Why? Im not going to sit here and be told to shut up and listen to what you have to teach me about my genders moral shortcomings.

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  67. @ jas0n

    You're starting to sound the way you did on SWPD.

    I've been discussing the problem women have with men from the female side. I was just giving the female perspective, which you didn't like. I was not assuming to know more about being a man than you. I wasn't hording the moral high ground. I simply made some honest statements which you didn't want to hear.

    Your defensiveness stems from your male privilege. It wasn't necessary; this convo could've been much more productive.

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  68. jas0nburns said..
    That's quite a list of demands. Maybe it's a female privilege to feel comfortable making such demands of a partner in the first place. I certainly wouldn't dream of making any such demands of someone I was with. I have never in my life expected any woman to go out of her way to please me in bed. Or in any other aspect of life. All I have ever required of any woman is her company and faithfulness.

    What this tells me is that you like most men ‘Lack Empathy’ for women, not just POC. When a woman voices her feelings to you what she’s looking for is your support and your empathy. She doesn’t want you to tell her what she did wrong, or to fix her (the same thing white men do when we complain about race) but rather she wants you to listen. “As if its happening to you.” Is it so wrong to put yourself in her place?

    If you could, you wouldn’t view her concerns as a “list of demands” but as trepidations every person might have in a relationship. She’s looking to you, her best friend (if you’re married) to feel what she feels and support her. To be there for her. It’s kind of ironic when you think of it. Some men come home from a hard day’s work and expect Empathy from their wives. I had a bad day at work today. The plant is thinking of laying me off. I’m feeling old- blah blah blah. He may not admit it but he wants understanding and support. (Empathy) But because he’s a privileged male he’s learned not to give a damn about her day. Moreover, because she loves him, she’ll put her complaints on the back burner and be his buttress; forgoing her own lack of fulfillment in the process.

    Privilege makes men self-centered. Oftentimes we don’t appreciate our women as we ought; frequently taking our relationship with her for granted. Jas0n this is a woman’s board. It is a safe haven for Women of Color. Listening to what these intelligent women have to say helps to see your privilege more clearly. You knew this coming in so why complain now?

    @Amaya...
    I want to bow down and kiss your feet for being so eloquent and honest about the root of what marriage is supposed to be. But since you're legally shackled and I don't kowtow, I will simply thank you for your words.

    That’s very sweet of you, but I wouldn’t want to burden you with my mess. It’s taken my Mrs. almost 30 years to tune me. I’m more like that 72 Olds you referred to. I got a lot of miles on me. I backfire a lot and I don’t run like I used to; even with the coaxing. The Mrs. might put me up on blocks, but she’ll never get rid of me as I lack blue-book value.

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  69. Ank, you were telling me to shut up and listen from the beginning. you're talking down to me now as you've been doing all along. That's why I'm defensive.

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  70. I think female privilege exists to the same extent male privilege exists. IMO it's pretty much a wash. I'm sure you have plenty of historical evidence to the contrary, but in today's western society woman have several important advantages over men. I see it every day in my own life so your denial won't make a dent.

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  71. "Do you think just because every woman has a pussy that we all come with the same instruction manual? "

    Um no, and I said as much. I said that most men don't seem to understand how different one woman is from the next sexually. I said this with no prompting from any of you, so how am I contradicting myself?

    The reason I said that maybe women don't know how different they are from one another is that usually you aren't very forthcoming about what in particular turns you on. Maybe you don't want to bruise our egos or whatever. But either way, the info is generally not forthcoming.

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  72. M.gibson

    I'm 33 years old with 2 kids and i'm happily married. I've been with my wife for over 7 years. Not as long as you but long enough to know exactly what you're talking about. This idea that women seek empathy is well known and a little cliche IMO.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8D9l_P3tiA

    In my experience, women do usually just want you to get them a glass of water.

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  73. At m.gibson.

    but do we go around requiring empathy or anything else from women? no. So in reality they are just asking us for something we aren't asking for in return. In fact, there is quite a long list of things we are expected to provide all the while asking nothing in return.

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  74. Also, maybe we're not supposed to have as much empathy as women, maybe part of being a woman is having more empathy. Can't you just accept that and move on? or be a lesbian? I mean why are we always supposed to be striving to be more like women all the time? it's not like we're trying to get you to be more like us at every turn.

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  75. Why do we always have to change for you, but you always get to be yourself?

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  76. @ M. Gibson

    Jas0n this is a woman’s board. It is a safe haven for Women of Color. Listening to what these intelligent women have to say helps to see your privilege more clearly. You knew this coming in so why complain now?

    Privilege. This is no different from when he bitched about racial issues on SWPD. He read some something negative and instead of trying to understand, he started fighting.

    Normally I would have simply deleted his comments, but he's demonstrated my point in an almost textbook manner.

    @ jas0n

    but in today's western society woman have several important advantages over men. I see it every day in my own life so your denial won't make a dent.

    White female privilege, sure. I'll agree with you a lot on that one. The rest of us, however...not so much.

    Ank, you were telling me to shut up and listen from the beginning. you're talking down to me now as you've been doing all along. That's why I'm defensive.

    You're a white heterosexual male, the walking embodiment of privilege in the Western world. If you want to have a convo with women about women's perspectives, then yes...shutting up and listening is the best course of action.

    When I said, "You can't learn if your lips are moving", I wasn't talking down to you. I was quoting a comment on yours on Abagond. You made a good point there. Too bad you don't want to follow your own advice in this.

    You're basically making it sounding as though I declared war on men here. I didn't. From my post to to my comments, I made it clear that men are just as human as women, with the same inner needs. We have the same impulses. The differences between which are causing so much trouble have a social basis - sound familiar? What would help hetero men improve their bedroom skills lies within their attitudes, not their biology.

    And this:

    but do we go around requiring empathy or anything else from women?...Also, maybe we're not supposed to have as much empathy as women, maybe part of being a woman is having more empathy. Can't you just accept that and move on? or be a lesbian? I mean why are we always supposed to be striving to be more like women all the time? it's not like we're trying to get you to be more like us at every turn.

    is basically trolling.

    i'm happily married.

    Our discussions would suggest otherwise.

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  77. Lol, nothing I've said here applies to my wife. Im speaking about men and women in general, mostly drawing on experiences from past failed relationships with lesser women.

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  78. I guess I made a mistake then by just thinking I could talk to you man-woman. What was I thinking. You can have your "safe space" back now.

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  79. Lol, nothing I've said here applies to my wife. Im speaking about men and women in general, mostly drawing on experiences from past failed relationships with lesser women.

    I can imagine the wound to your ego when you let down a "lesser" woman in bed.

    You can have your "safe space" back now.

    Thanks, Massa. You's a generous man.

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  80. Reminds me of Cultural Diversity seminars I took in the Navy and some years later where I worked. I used to get a kick out of watching white males become angry and defensive; spouting all manner of frustrations in order to protect their egos. It was quite telling. Especially when we worked together for years and I never knew how my white co-workers/friends actually felt. Sometimes I wonder if Jas0n sought this board out simply for the debate. The thrill of it. It gets the adrenalin flowing (I hear white males say). It’s a rush.

    Jas0n, white people already have a deficiency in Empathy when it comes to POC, so maybe that's why you keep missing Ankhesen Mié and the other’s point. Couple that with your White Male Privilege and you're blind as a bat (so to speak). You sought this board out (I’m guessing) to learn about race- privilege and gender from a black woman's perspective. But the minute you think you had her cornered on something ‘other than race’ you pounced. You did the opposite of what you said you were going to do the first day you came here. Your words...

    Jas0nburns said...
    "I was wondering where y'all went. Glad I can still read some of your posts, though I'll just be lurking i think."

    Even when Witchsistah put you on notice you stayed. I guess she and the regulars knew something you didn’t know. So I'm thinking there must be something you glean from the content or you wouldn't be here. Why come here if all you’re going to do is argue? What’s the draw? What’s the payoff? Are you simply looking to put a black woman in her place by trying to best her in a debate? No… that can’t be it.

    Considering the length and breadth Witchsistah laid it out for you I think Ankhesen Mié has been more than kind towards you. Empathy is not just something a woman should have- but it is something every human being (regardless of race or gender) should have. You can empathize with your own I’ll give you that. You will go to bat for each other during a disaster. You treat every report of a missing white child as if they were your own. You’ll give your life for a house full of dogs and pigs. You’ll risk your safety to save the whales. But you possess little if no empathy for someone darker than yourself; or whose gender happens to be female.

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  81. Sometimes I wonder if Jas0n sought this board out simply for the debate. The thrill of it. It gets the adrenalin flowing (I hear white males say). It’s a rush.

    Must be. I don't go to white blogs to bicker back and forth with the authors, but because of their sense of entitlement, some white folks flitter over here and get mad simply because I give an honest opinion from the perspective of a black woman.

    That "hefty list of demands" I stated above came out of the mouths of women of both white and non-white skintones, as well as data from my sociology and psychology professors in grad school. This is how women feel. This is the sort of thing which goes through the mind of an unfaithful and/or unhappy woman who's mulling over whether or not to divorce her husband.

    It's not like we haven't had a similar chat before.

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  82. ***comment moderation***

    jas0n, you're done here. You can get over yourself now.

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  83. ***comment moderation***

    you'll die alone

    Thanks for the heads up, jas0n.

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  84. Yeah, 7 comments in a row is a bad sign.

    "you'll die alone"

    Wow, troll!

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  85. Gracious...
    Didn't take him long to show his ...

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  86. from psychology today:
    "The stereotype about the sex-starved man and the disinterested woman may be more than just a cliche. As it turns out, the instant a woman enters a secure relationship, her sex drive begins to plummet. Four years in, a German study found, fewer than half of women wanted regular sex. And after 20 years, only 20 percent did.


    Psychology Today? LMAO - Dr. Housebroken's people?

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