Letter from "Dude"

"Dude" finally read everyone's comments.  I wasn't supposed to add that extra bit of trivia (sorry, "Dude!"), but your responses helped him anyhow

~ * ~

To those of you who have read of my "adventures" and are wondering why I even bothered with the conversation, I hope you'll be stick around for my rather lengthy explanation.  First, let me say it had nothing to do with how badly I wanted to have sex with "GIRL", because I honestly was not that physically attracted to her.

And "saint-like" patience? Nah, it was nothing so noble.  It's more that I just can't tolerate people being so misinformed, or willfully ignorant, or oblivious, or (insert adjective favorite for white people here).  I also really like to argue. Apart from that, I have a lot of pent up animosity towards white people, which such conversations allow me to expel in a more productive way, instead of punching a random white dude in the throat for saying the wrong thing to me.  Which almost happened in a CVS the other day, but I digress.  Point is, the conversation was somewhat self-serving, because ordinarily these thoughts are just smoldering inside my head, and it's nice to have an outlet.

I certainly cringed at certain people's accusations that I was a narcissist, and felt a pang of hurt at someone's suggestion that I just "leave WoC alone".  Still, I felt no immediate need to defend myself, as it may all be true to an extent.  It may help to give a little background on myself.  For most of my life I was completely oblivious - one of those black dudes who spent a fair amount of his childhood in white suburbia - and needed to believe that peaceable relationships between me and the majority were possible.  Racists were those far away people - distant in time and/or space. The discomfort I often felt from things people said to me, and the few instances of overt racism that I experienced were tucked away as isolated situations, not attributed to some greater institution.  I also had some distance from other black people for all the "white people shit" that I was interested in, so I was in a strange sort of limbo between black and white, looking for a place to anchor myself.

It wasn't until I was well into my 20s that I had my "awakening", so to speak.  Some of you may be surprised to learn that I am in my early 30s now, as I've given Moi and at least one other commenter the impression that I'm young.  Biologically, no, mentally, no, but in terms of my experience with processing at all this race shit, yeah, I'm still a little green.  My entry point into the broader critical race dialogue will probably answer a lot of questions regarding both my apparent narcissism and my relationship to white women.

As far back as I can remember, I've been physically attracted to white women, and only in recent years have I been able to attribute that to conditioning around the commercial beauty standard - the exaltation of white features, white hair, white body types, and the exclusion, fetishism, or condemnation of everything else.  The most perverse thing about the standard is that the white women don't even need to be that attractive in their own right.  I'm reminded of a scene from "Don't Be a Menace" (fast forward to 8:05).

Anyway, where I didn't find a connection with black women mentally, and sought it instead from white women, it had to do with my perception of common interests between us.  I remember this crush I had on a black girl a few grades ahead of me: I was a freshman in high school, she was a junior.  One day I was listening to some music on my headphones and she asked if she could listen to it. I didn't think she even noticed me up to that point, so of course I was enthusiastic about her interest in my music.  She had the headphones on her head for about 10-15 seconds before kind of laughing and saying "Oh, this is white boy shit."  That was typical of the kind of interactions I had with other black people at the time.

But wait.  Before you start thinking that that was the source of the "psychic wound" that led to my narcissism, it wasn't.  I had already come to terms with my distance from black people in general.  That situation hurt only because it confirmed that I would have no shot with this hot girl!

So as you can imagine, the majority of the girls I pursued romantically were white - because of my beauty standard conditioning and the false pretext that I had nothing in common with black women.  In case you're wondering, non-black PoC were scarce where I grew up, so options outside the black/white binary were limited.  Anyway, I liked a lot of white girls, and pretty much none of them liked me back - probably because I was socially awkward, had geeky interests, demonstrated an aggressive indifference towards fashion, and was just all an around weirdo.  These are probably the same reasons the black girls didn't like me, but with them somehow my differences were contextualized within my proximity to white people rather than a general social distance from everyone.  So it was easy for me to develop the false idea that I would have a better connection with white women.

Mind you, these are things I've come to understand in my adult life.  At the time I was clueless.  From my pre-teen years well into my mid-20s, I had a long, painfully internalized, and meticulously indexed series of failures with (white) women, minus one brief relationship at 16 (to whom I lost my virginity).  I think it was this one success that delayed the "realization" that I had in my 20s: that maybe the reason I was having so much trouble landing these white girls was because - gasp! - I was a black man.

I mean, it seriously never occurred to me, in spite of all of the evidence in the world that race was at least a consideration for these girls.  I can't even remember what put the idea in my head, but when it came, my immediate reaction was outrage.  My whole life had been spent at a distance from black people, and now here I was being rejected by white people because I was black!? It was at this point - when it affected something that was of deep importance to me (trivial though it may be in the greater context of discrimination) - that racism was no longer this distant specter, but something very real, very present, and very much affecting me.  This was the psychic wound, I figure, because the shit hurt.  Bad.

Whether it was true or not didn't even matter.  Today I am just as willing - even more inclined - to believe that my failures were based more on my own social awkwardness than white women's racism, but it was here that the floodgates opened. I began to examine the events in my life past and present through a different lens. But it would be still be some time before the new opening was filled with any actual knowledge about whiteness, white supremacy, privilege, any of it. I continued to pursue white women (because it was what I was accustomed to, because I was still conditioned to find them more attractive, or maybe because I'm some sort of masochist), but with some serious caution and insecurity about my race and what that meant for my relationships with white people, which I had never felt before.

Ironically, it was a white woman (who had a history of dating black men, particularly "conscious" ones, loved listening to Common and Mos Def, smoking weed and "philosophizing" - you probably know the type) who introduced me to a lot of the critical race dialogue.  She then proceeded to give me the run around for the better part of a year, but that's another story.  Once I was exposed, there was no turning back, and ever since I've been thinking about blackness and whiteness on a much deeper level.  I almost exclusively dated black women after that - and perhaps here some of you are cringing at the idea of me bringing all that baggage to an unsuspecting and undeserving woman of color.

Amongst those was a relationship of nearly 3 years, with a black woman of near infinite patience and understanding - such that she and I could even have conversations about things like my conditioning to the white beauty standard, in spite of how that must have impacted her, particularly with regards to how she imagined I saw her.  Things ended for separate but not altogether unrelated reasons; I'll spare you the details. Thankfully, we are still close friends to this day.  That relationship left me with some serious cognitive dissonance - between my persisting physical attraction to white women and my fully cultivated mental distance from them, which includes a rather agonizing awareness of my conditioning and a deep desire to purge it.

The mere prospect of dating white women sometimes feels like a betrayal of my own sensibilities, and in a way a betrayal of women of color.  I feel like I continue to be part of some global problem in which WoC get passed over, because men in the West have been conditioned to devalue them while placing a premium on everything white.  While I recognize that it is arrogant for me to imply that I am withholding anything so special from women of color, I'd like to think I have some good qualities to offer.  At the same time, I am acutely aware of the baggage that I bring, too, which resonates with the suggestion that I should leave WoC alone. That comment hurt because there is probably some truth in it.

So why the hell did I go on dates with 9 white women? Well, the conditioning is not so easy to purge, even being fully aware of it. Also, I suspect they make up the vast majority of the women in my area using that particular website.  Hell, maybe white women are more likely to use the internet for dating overall?  In which case, as Moi has suggested to me, I need to investigate some other venues.  Regardless, white women were the ones responding to me, and these particular girls at least seemed to be on the right page socially and politically.  But as one commenter pointed out, and as I have come to understand and have personally experienced, alliances forged along common ideologies can easily disintegrate once the topic shifts to race.

The conversation you all have read was more or less me cutting right to the chase.  That's pretty much my approach to white women these days.  While I haven't closed the door entirely to them, it will probably require one of extraordinary awareness (of both self and other) and/or extraordinary humility in order for her to be a viable companion.  But to be clear, I am not actively seeking out that one noble, right-minded, white woman who will allow me to indulge in my conditioning to the white beauty standard while also assuaging any feelings of guilt around betraying women of color through her enlightenment.  Because fuck that.  And in response to a particular commenter: No, white pussy is not that damn precious.

Finally, coming back to the charge of narcissism - I wouldn't say it's entirely untrue, but I'd like to think that I have evolved beyond the initial hurt that prompted my "awakening", and that I now choose to have race discussions out of a newly cultivated sense of militancy (and I use that word proudly), meaning that I do so proactively, rather than reactively.  Perhaps it is as many of you have suggested: a colossal waste of time.  Still, I suppose that so long as it also serves as a more productive outlet for the animosity I have towards white people - then it has some personal value for me.  You see, because my awakening also made me acutely aware of the consequences of being a black man in America who would go around punching white people in the neck.

So that's the story.  I cannot overstate how valuable your input has been - it was validating in places, quite illuminating in others, and downright hilarious throughout.  Really, thank you.

---DUDE

Comments

  1. @ dude

    I have only 1 question. why the neck lol?

    also I thought it was a little strange that people on here were ready to psychoanalyze you from the jump without really knowing anything about you. If all people with issues stopped dating to spare their prospective mates that would be the end of humanity.

    ReplyDelete
  2. I don't even know what to say, besides i wish him the peace he seeks

    ReplyDelete
  3. I thought it was a little strange that people on here were ready to psychoanalyze you from the jump without really knowing anything about you.

    I'll pass on the psych evaluation because 1) frankly, most people have no idea what they're talking about and 2) an amateur psych diagnosis seems like the easy way out. Don't most of us scoff when a WP explains a racist incident away with, "Oh, she must be mentally ill"? *cough*BethanyStorro*cough* Bottom line, it's unproductive, because the only useful thing you (the reader can do) is say "Go see a licensed clinician." (Sorry for the rant, but I have a degree in Psychology--so does Ankhesen, I believe--and it bugs to see conversations get bogged down in psychobabble.)

    Dude,

    As for your attraction to White women, your previous post seemed to make it pretty clear, and you just validated it here. Hence, "The most perverse thing about the standard is that the white women don't even need to be that attractive in their own right."

    You are still thinking in terms of that black/white binary, because your mentality is All WW or All BW, which is a problem of seeing both groups as a monolith, as you admitted above. Many of the BW commenters of this blog have been/are currently involved with WM, but that doesn't mean any WM is peachy. No one said that you dating a WW means you hate BW; you made it that way when you decided any WW would be better than a BW. And yes, that's baggage we don't need.

    ReplyDelete
  4. ~ I thought it was a little strange that people on here were ready to psychoanalyze you from the jump without really knowing anything about you.

    ~ I have a degree in Psychology--so does Ankhesen, I believe--and it bugs to see conversations get bogged down in psychobabble.

    *nods* You remembered.

    ReplyDelete
  5. If all people with issues stopped dating to spare their prospective mates that would be the end of humanity.

    Yeah...people seem to forget that.

    ReplyDelete
  6. @jas0nburns: Because I picture it as the quickest way to get them to stop talking. And because it looks really funny in print. :)

    @jasmin: No, I really don't think in terms of the binary in my dating choices (though I do in other places). On the contrary, I feel no hang-ups at all when it comes to dating any woman of color - that is, ANY woman who is not white. I have long since learned that ethnicities are not monoliths, and there there are plenty of women of all backgrounds to whom I can connect in a meaningful way. So, to be clear, I am also not interested in dating WoC simply because it validates me in some way, but because actually I find I now have more in common with them in areas that matter most to me.

    The only time I feel any self-consciousness, or have any baggage, is when dating white women - not because I feel like it means that I "hate black women" (or any other WoC for that matter), but because I feel like I'm catering to white women's privilege of being seen or selected as so uniquely beautiful or special or whatever, when I don't even believe that.

    Still, as I mentioned, who I've dated since my awakening has come down to who was responsive - which I don't think had anything to do with ethnicity, but where I've been looking.

    ReplyDelete
  7. "The most perverse thing about the standard is that the white women don't even need to be that attractive in their own right."

    I've noticed this 2. what is that about? is it really racialized beauty standards?

    Blinded by the white.

    ReplyDelete
  8. @jas0nburns: That's part of it, but I think it's more complicated than that, and that different people have different reasons. Such as:

    1) For some, dating white women represents a status benefit, a sense of having "made it" and acquiring the coveted "prize".

    2) The idea that white women are more benign (in contrast, say, to the bullshit idea that "black women have bad attitudes). This in itself is complicated, as it has to do with ideals of masculinity and fears of one's "manhood being challenged". It's very much tied up in sexist ideas of gender roles, and in particular for men of color, connects to #3 below.

    3) A response to internalized ideas of inferiority, i.e. "If this white woman accepts me, then I'm not as stupid, violent, or ugly as everyone thinks I am")

    4) Antagonism towards white men - sort of in the same vein as white women "fucking black men to piss daddy off", which should raise all sorts of red flags about how a man of color sees himself next to white men.

    5) For black men, antagonism towards black women, as if the former are somehow punishing the latter by not dating them.

    6) Fetishism, or the "forbidden fruit" mentality, which is related to all of the above in terms of being about internalized racism and self-validation, but it's entirely about sex.

    While #5 may sound similar to my issue, I'm different in that I have never sought to (or presumed I even could) "punish" black women, and my problem is more with giving white women more attention than what they may be due simply on account of their whiteness (i.e. their privilege).

    ReplyDelete
  9. As I said and tried to explain when I called you a narcissist, it wasn't to insult you. As me and I think Witchsista? Have said we have personal experiences with Narcissists, and in your case they sound similiar to my sister,except with white men in her case. Although the consequences weren't as severe for you as they were for her obviously. Probably because men don't have to deal with the physical consequences of sex/relationships at least in terms of pregnancy. They still have the emotional weight to carry but...uh they don't wear the scars I don't think.

    I don't believe pyshcobabble either...I could have called it a blind spot(?) but I would have been saying the same thing. But with a lot of people it just saves me time, in dealing with them once they exhibit certain characteristics that I and others have associated with that term. If that helps.

    LOL I'm 22 and I don't think 30 is old?


    But when I said you sounded "young" I meant you sounded like emotionally you had not progressed beyond a certain age/level of maturity, and you admitted that you're still developing your identity(I think?) around which to base your...choices/goals at least personally in life. And that's all I really meant in regards to that, if it helps I dated someone who was 44 and had the same problem. And I believe based on my own experiences that some people never progress mentally beyond a certain age.

    As someone else pointed out, you see it very much in terms of black and white...My problem with that was- you chose these women. They may have been interested initially but you still pursued them.Society had nothing to do with your personal choices. I'm not criticizing those choices anymore than I criticized my sister's choices but..after the second or third time....what did you expect to happen? I was just...confused about that. And you're not the first black guy I've known that had this problem either and I still really don't get it.


    I mean best of luck to you with that and it sounds like you're making some progress.

    ReplyDelete
  10. @ ThatDude

    As I was reading your list it struck me that the vulnerable picture your painting of black men is totally at odds with how white America sees you.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Thats not what I was saying. If you are aware of those issues and honest about them with yourself and other people, it would probably save you and someone else.... a lot of pain. Which you obviously were in if you took the time to email someone about about it and saved IM conversations and all of that.

    And again it was your choice for, whatever reason, to put yourself in that situation. Again and again, with the same type of people.

    If you think it's just a black/white thing and the same thing happens in your relationships with WOC...maybe that isn't the problem.

    ReplyDelete
  12. @Student of the World: I think you're too quick to try to categorize me within some framework that applied to people you've known (perhaps) or some case studies in a textbook. To the extent that you "don't get it", it is clear that the psychoanalysis bit isn't really working for you.

    I am not "blaming society" for anything: there were no actual people who actively worked to give me issues around dating and race. But it is a fact that we (in America) are conditioned to value the aesthetic over all others, our ability to resist often dependent upon the cultures in which we are raised. Had I not felt alienation from black people (black women included in that, obviously), perhaps the conditioning would not have taken as strong a hold.

    You can't rightfully say that I "[have] not progressed beyond a certain age/level of maturity", because for one, you don't know me, and two, you would not be qualified to do so even if you did. You seem to have this habit of comparing people - again, trying to fit everyone into neat psychoanalytical boxes. I could conjecture that your doing so is just your own means of trying to make sense of a world from which you feel alienated, but that would have about as much merit as your analysis of me. Which is to say: none.

    I am not your sister, nor your 44 year old ex-boyfriend, nor anyone else you know, nor anyone else you've met, nor anyone else you've read about in a textbook. You may not be "trying to insult", but you have a very condescending know-it-all tone to your comments that is rather frustrating.

    And this bit:
    "...pain. Which you were obviously in if you took the time to email someone else about it..."

    Obvious? Except for the part where it wasn't, because you're only making assumptions. This conversation didn't cause me the least bit of pain. Frustration? Exasperation of the sort that I attribute to virtually all conversations about race that I have with white people? Certainly - and as it's something that I know Moi can relate to, I thought I'd share it with her (and about 10 other people).

    I've already explained - in rather exhaustive detail, I think - why I continued to date white women, and it had nothing to do with what you're saying abut "seeing things in black and white". You might want to ease up on all the analysis and listen to what I'm actually saying, rather than how you filter what you think I'm saying through some psychoanalytic framework.

    ReplyDelete
  13. @jas0nburns: But that's part of the stigma, yeah? By casting black men as a threat, as something to be reviled or feared, it obscures any chance of seeing vulnerability. Of course there are things built into our culture, with regards to masculinity and general, and being a black man in particular, that prevents many of us from showing, or even contemplating for ourselves that vulnerability.

    ReplyDelete
  14. also I thought it was a little strange that people on here were ready to psychoanalyze you from the jump without really knowing anything about you.

    Yet, people have no problem psychoanalyzing BW, especiall those who don't agree with them, and no one says blip. I cannot tell you how many times I've been told online and in 3-D that I was "obviously" angry, bitter, jealous (BW are perpetually jealous it seems), alone (usually when I was partnerned with someone), self-hating, blah, blah, blah. But I was expected to eat it and never protest it because if I did, that meant what was said about me must have been true. So excuse me while I severely eye-roll over the sudden hand-wringing about armchair psycholoanalysis online.

    And if you're going to accuse folks, at least have the grapes to name some names.

    @Dude,

    I meant what I said and still do. You need to leave WoC alone. We are not what you want. You said you still find WW more physically attractive, regardless of your knowledge of societal conditioning's affect on you. That's going to play out in your interactions with women. You may think it won't or you'll be able to hide it, but it will always leak out somehow.

    . If all people with issues stopped dating to spare their prospective mates that would be the end of humanity.

    That's why I told Dude that he was not the first, last or only person whose desires conflicted with their ideologies and intellectual summations. There are well-known feminists who've had less-than-equal and liberating relationships with men while they were "well-known feminists." There are folks who love to date the bad boys and girls even though they know those folks are not good for them. and there's the long-running joke that all male Black nationalists must be paired with a WW that is well-founded in historical fact (look at many of the early African liberation/anti-colonialism leaders of the mid 20th century who went on to become the first leaders of their newly independent nations. There were a LOT of White First Ladies of those countries). I didn't tell Dude not to date period, just not to date WoC. I can only imagine how that BW he dated felt when he told her about how he finds WW so beautiful. Honestly, WoC do NOT need that especially when WE are trying to find love too.

    And again, I say desire is not easily changed, especially once one enters adulthood. That only happens when something drastic has occurred, either a great disappointment from the desired group or a very positive experience from an undesired group. And usually because new information has been attached to that desire.

    In American society, we're conditioned to find popular people attractive, say the jocks and cheerleaders in a high school. Because of this, other students will try to date members of those popular groups. But say their experiences in the attempt to date or the actual dating are negative (the guys behave like douchebags and the girls like stuck-up, princess bitches). What happens is you'll now associate those groups with negative traits. Jocks are sexist, douchebags, and cheerleaders are stuck-up bitches, and both groups look down on anyone not in either group. Well, now the jocks and cheerleaders are a lot less fetching to you even though they follow the societal rules of attractiveness.

    It's like if redheads really do it for you. Yes, you can find members other groups attractive and will date them if for no other reason than redheads are relatively rare and you do want to get laid this decade. But no one makes your nethers go ga ga like redheads. You may even marry a brunette, but that doesn't mean your redhead lust is gone.

    ReplyDelete
  15. "So excuse me while I severely eye-roll over the sudden hand-wringing about armchair psycholoanalysis online.

    And if you're going to accuse folks, at least have the grapes to name some names."

    Alright then Witchsista.

    It seemed like more than a couple people were indulging but i'm not the blog police nor am I innocent myself so i didn't want to single anyone out. I said it was odd that's all.

    I just thought it was pointless especially considering how little dude had originally stated about his motivations.

    ReplyDelete
  16. @ DUDE

    Yeah, and it seems like those things would strongly reinforce one another.

    If you see someone as invulnerable all you can do is fear them. So by casting black men as brutes you support fear and mistrust making empathy impossible.

    ReplyDelete
  17. @Witchsistah:

    Yet, people have no problem psychoanalyzing BW, especially those who don't agree with them, and no one says blip.

    Where is that even coming from? I don't think anyone here would endorse armchair psychoanalysis of black women. I know I wouldn't.

    You need to leave WoC alone.

    While your input gave me pause, and was worth thinking about, you do not know me well enough to make that statement with any justifiable conviction. So you'll have to forgive me if I disregard your suggestion.

    [D]esire is not easily changed, especially once one enters adulthood. That only happens when something drastic has occurred, either a great disappointment from the desired group or a very positive experience from an undesired group.

    Yes, and both of those things occurred, which I thought I outlined pretty clearly - through my continued disappointment with white women, and the most meaningful relationship of my life being with a black woman.

    Your redhead analogy rings false for me and reflects an extreme cynicism - though broadly speaking, such cynicism is justified.

    Still, just because I was conditioned to prefer white women does not mean that there is no woman of color capable of generating an equal or greater level of attraction. Just because I choose a woman of color does not mean that I am just settling for second best, and secretly wish I could have a white woman instead.

    It is actually now quite the opposite. I'd much rather date a WoC because:

    1) I have felt a greater mental/emotional connection with women of color, particularly black women.

    2) I truly am learning to appreciate beauty outside the white standard

    3) The baggage I feel around dating white women, and the sense - albeit years delayed - that they are not worth the trouble.

    But what's interesting is that you use the word "lust", and when I consider my interest in white women, such as it is, it is highly applicable.

    Because my interest doesn't have, and probably never had any mental or emotional content, for reasons illustrated in this one conversation, among others. As teenagers and early adults, how many men honestly contemplate such things, though? I didn't.

    But where my interest was purely physical, my sense of righteousness might have left me scrambling to find more meaning in it, even where there was none. I can recall a number of times where something in the back of my mind said "This is NOT going to work out", but I found some bullshit way to rationalize my concerns away.

    Lust alone cannot be the basis of a healthy relationship. So for the long term I'd much rather have a holistic - sexual, emotional, mental, even spiritual - relationship with a woman of color.

    ReplyDelete
  18. *looks up at the comment above*

    Anyway...

    If my husband, while we were dating, rhapsodized about how he found blue-eyed, blondes to be the most beautiful women in the world, we'd be perfect strangers today. I'd be wondering what the hell he was dating ME for, and I'd probably tell him to go and find the Aryan goddess of his dreams and lose my number. I'd appreciate his honesty in so far as it would indicate I need not waste any more of my precious time on him.

    ReplyDelete
  19. While your input gave me pause, and was worth thinking about, you do not know me well enough to make that statement with any justifiable conviction. So you'll have to forgive me if I disregard your suggestion.

    WTFever then, Dude.

    But a bit of advice though. In future, it would be best if you left your former lust after WW out of the conversation, however past tense it may be. We're not interested in hearing about it. Any WoC with her self-esteem intact will kick you to the curb and tell you to keep her name out your mouth from then on.

    ReplyDelete
  20. @ That Dude and Witchsistah

    You're both right.

    Dude, you've had an awakening. From your posts and our conversations, I can tell you've identified a pattern of behavior as well as the cause of that behavior. I commend you; most folks don't get that far.

    Witchsistah, no...WoC don't like listening to a guy talk about his "WW phase", no matter how past tense his issues are. That he should leave that part out of his dates with WoC is an excellent Fashion Tip. But since none of US are trying to hook up with Dude here, we can hear and talk about this with him. This is a productive exercise, and the whole point of cooperative communication.

    I invited Dude to talk about these things and may have been a bit pushy into getting him to share his thoughts and experiences with us. He did so hesitantly, and so we have to have some measure of gratitude for someone opening up to us like this. For some of you, his honesty may come as infuriating. For Moi, this is - as always - an opportunity to learn.

    I think we tend to oversimplify the BM/WW issue in America. We throw around words like "lust", "conditioning", and "pussy" around without stopping to really examine the deeper social issues. We reference them briefly, voice our disappointment or defiance, but we don't communicate with one another, which we need to.

    So while some of us may not enjoy reading stuff like this from men like Dude, we need to. This is not dismiss the irritation of BW in this matter; BW's anger is completely valid here. But after we express our anger, we must get to the learning, to the deeper understanding, and finally, progress.

    ReplyDelete
  21. But after we express our anger, we must get to the learning, to the deeper understanding, and finally, progress.


    WTF are BW supposed to learn from this? I've heard mess like this for most of my life from BM via their worship of light-skin and White features. But what it comes down to is there ain't a damn thing I can do about it outside of leave men like that the hell alone. And yes, that includes non-BM that engage in White worship.

    It's not like I can convince them that women like me are actual, for real WOMEN just like their White godesses. I damn sure can't make them desire me. So what am I supposed to do as a BW? Listen for the umpteeth, fiddy-eleventeenth, bajillionth time about how a man believes WW are the baby Jesus' own gift to dick? Whatevs. You can miss me with that.

    This is an issue for those that have it to tackle. It's not up to the "undesirables" to prove they're worthy of consideration. In Dude's case, this is not a burden for WoC to bear or share. It's HIS dog's doo-doo and it belongs on HIS front lawn.

    The only thing I can advise WoC, especially BW to do is not to put our lives on hold waiting for men like Dude to "get it." Maybe they will and maybe they won't. And maybe they'll get it in time to snag one of us. Maybe they'll be too late and we'll be with men who value us as we are. That's the chance you take.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Although I have read through all of the transcripts/comments on "the Dude" I will say this.... The whole "conditioned by the media" thing is a bit played out. Sure the preference for WW may have developed out of conditioning but there is more to it. If these WW continued to dick you over like this, despite the initial attraction, why continue on? Im not saying you should give up on them wholesale but it sounds like you are willing to put up with a lot of BS in order to get together with a WW.Strange. You are choosing these women, but complaining about how the treat you, stranger.

    ReplyDelete
  23. 2) I truly am learning to appreciate beauty outside the white standard

    3) The baggage I feel around dating white women, and the sense - albeit years delayed - that they are not worth the trouble.



    .....Okay, but it's not a black/white thing? Whatever you have to tell yourself.

    As Witchsista pointed out no one was hand wringing "Well lets not be so hasty-" when it comes to black women on these threads.

    And I wasn't analyzing. I was just pointing out some obvious parallels between your behavior and that of other people who fit that narcissistic framework, like Josephine Baker(with the white husbands)

    There was a lot of hasty assumptions made when it came to Jade Nina Hansen and that didn't seem to bother anyone. In my case it was more a "well if the shoe fits" in regards to the narcissist thing.

    As to you complaint that I don't know you... I don't need to. I was just commenting based off of the situation as you presented it, and obviously there was more than what you were saying, as your subsequent posts indicated.

    You're pretty typical of BM and men in general actually with the whole putting white women/people on a pedestal.

    As I recall people threw a LOT of scorn and personal indictments on Jade Nita Hansen.

    And with good reason. We didn't need to know her to do that, we knew enough about the type of person she presented herself to be and the situation she was in and just went from there. Just like we did with you. At least in my case. Can't speak for anyone else here.



    Obvious? Except for the part where it wasn't, because you're only making assumptions. This conversation didn't cause me the least bit of pain. Frustration? Exasperation of the sort that I attribute to virtually all conversations about race that I have with white people? Certainly - and as it's something that I know Moi can relate to, I thought I'd share it with her (and about 10 other people).

    I've already explained - in rather exhaustive detail, I think - why I continued to date white women, and it had nothing to do with what you're saying abut "seeing things in black and white".


    ......Okay. Whatever you want to call it. It obviously preoccupied you enough that you saved an IM conversation and talked to various people about it again for whatever reason.

    And the only reason's you've given so far were black/white ones, even in your justification that they weren't.

    And again I wasn't analyzing, just pointing out parallels/similarities with other situations that I know personally/famous examples.

    Because again you're pretty...typical-to me.

    ReplyDelete
  24. It is actually now quite the opposite. I'd much rather date a WoC because:

    1) I have felt a greater mental/emotional connection with women of color, particularly black women.

    2) I truly am learning to appreciate beauty outside the white standard


    Again, with the binary. Generally, people are in relationships with only one person at a time, so why do you keep talking about Black and White women as a group? Look, my boyfriend is White, but that gets White man in general no credit from me. I happen to love him as an individual, and that love is not a reflection of my thoughts on White people/Whiteness.

    That being said, you introduced the idea that your relationship choices reflect something deeper, but you seem defensive when others point out the unfavorable implications. So maybe you shouldn't be in a relationship at all until you can get past using BW vs. WW as symbols of your "consciousness".

    ReplyDelete
  25. I agree with Jasmin, SOTW, and Witchsistah! I hope that you continue to take the time to actually read for understanding rather than becoming defensive about what was said. It would actually be helpful in your journey.

    For whatever reason there seems to be this narcissistic need for the confused in society to have BW be the ears and shoulders--being seen but not heard--for people that have not had their come to Jesus moment! No and thank you.

    There are too many males in general who rely on their "conditioned" penis when putting up with all manners of bullshit from WW and other non-BW with the hope that the next one will be different. But those very same men will have BW on a work-for-it and prove that you're worthy type of program. That is a WTF situation for sure.

    Choosing a mate/partner should first and foremost be about the individual. No woman will choose to be with any man regardless of race if they feel he is not all in for THEM, the individual.

    Something else that you might want to explore is the fact that you seem to see WW and WM that indulge in white privilege as different(a very fatal mistake throughout history). You want to chop the WM in the throat for getting out of pocket but the WW you want to continue giving a chance in the most intimate of relationships???

    ReplyDelete
  26. So maybe you shouldn't be in a relationship at all until you can get past using BW vs. WW as symbols of your "consciousness"

    QFT.

    Women, regardless of race, aren't symbols or objects for you to obtain. Women are people.

    And you'll say "I know" and give long-winded examples and then go right back to talking about WW like we're trophies and WOC like they're the consolation prizes.

    American culture is toxic and sends all sorts of fucked up messages about race and gender. But Dude, please just stop it. Whether you intend it or not, you're giving the impression that instead of dating women because you like them as individuals, you're dating them because doing so enhances your status or jibes with your perception of yourself.

    ReplyDelete
  27. @ Jasmin
    Thank you for getting my point.

    ReplyDelete
  28. I am not "blaming society" for anything: there were no actual people who actively worked to give me issues around dating and race. But it is a fact that we (in America) are conditioned to value the aesthetic over all others, our ability to resist often dependent upon the cultures in which we are raised. Had I not felt alienation from black people (black women included in that, obviously), perhaps the conditioning would not have taken as strong a hold.

    Did you feel alienated from the black people in your family?


    Your black friends(assuming you had any)?

    Everyone feels alienated from their peers at one time or another. It's called adolescence, the time that people start to develop their identities.

    You obviously still have not finished.This is why I say you have not progressed beyond a certain level of thought. You've gone from one extreme to the other in hopes that that will remedy the problem.

    "Well I'll just date black women, white women are too much of a hassle." Is the most juvenile epiphany you could've arrived at.


    And GTFOH with this BS that WOC didn't "share your interests". You just admitted that"because of societal conditioning"(your upbringing too no doubt) you found WW more attractive so that was what you went after. You can't complain that you didn't find something you weren't actively seeking.

    You were looking for a WW who also happened to share your interests.

    You weren't just looking for a "woman" who shared your interests.

    How would you know they didn't share your interests if you weren't looking for them in the first place, except as a possible second choice?

    You wonder why you couldn't find WOC who share your interests when you kept them on the backburner?

    "Well they came after me isn't a good excuse either." If I let who pursued me dictate my dating choices as a female, I would be very messed up. You have to look deeper than that.

    And again you keep labeling whole groups of people as one thing/or the other thing.

    You don't talk about these women as individuals, you talk about them only as reflections of whatever internal identity problem you are having.

    Again as far as the conditioning thing goes, it doesn't give you a pass on your individual choices. Sorry. Because you control those, not society. BW get the same conditioning but I bet you would be really pissed off if we treated BM the way you've treated WOC.

    ReplyDelete
  29. I agree with what Black Butterfly and Witchsistah have said. I wouldn't dare to tell someone I'm in a relationship with about my preference for people who look nothing like them. The fact that so many men seem to feel comfortable doing that ... what is that male privilege?

    ReplyDelete
  30. @ Modest Goddess
    I think you hit the nail on the head.

    ReplyDelete
  31. @Modest Goddess
    The fact that so many men seem to feel comfortable doing that ... what is that male privilege?

    Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding **bell breaks and crashes through the floor**

    ReplyDelete

Post a Comment

This blog is strictly moderated. Everyone is now able to comment again, however, all Anonymous posts will be immediately deleted. Comments on posts more than 30 days old are generally dismissed, so try to stay current with the conversations.