7:55:19 PM Dude: They are not even remotely the same in net result.
7:55:49 PM GIRL: it is counter-productive
7:55:59 PM GIRL: very much so
7:56:09 PM Dude: Yeah, but for the black people themselves, not for the white people.
7:56:22 PM GIRL: if you have white peope who refuse to work around blacks b/c of it
7:56:25 PM GIRL: that hurts that
7:56:27 PM GIRL: *them
7:56:36 PM Dude: again, who are the victims in that situation?
7:56:43 PM GIRL: b/c hell, i've had to apologize a number of times for being white
7:56:47 PM GIRL: and i'm pretty sick of it
7:56:50 PM Dude: Aha!
7:57:03 PM Dude: First of all, never apologize for that.
7:57:11 PM Dude: Secondly, the Alcoff article addresses that exact thing
7:57:16 PM GIRL: also
7:57:20 PM GIRL: the victims are hurting themselves
7:57:36 PM Dude: Right, so can you see how the two do not have the same results?
7:57:45 PM GIRL: you can't blame whites for going into a historically black neighborhood and leaving when they're insulted
7:58:01 PM Dude: White racism hurts people of color in many major ways. POC racism (which is an oxymoron, but whatever) hurts people of color in many ways.
7:58:05 PM Dude: Who is the victim in both cases? heh
7:58:13 PM Dude: There is no proportionate relationship.
7:58:30 PM Dude: But again, again again...
7:58:36 PM Dude: POC "racism" is reactionary
7:58:43 PM GIRL: again, it's hard for me to sympathize with people who act as a detriment to themselves
7:58:58 PM Dude: They're acting the only way they know how, based on what they've experienced.
7:59:18 PM Dude: do you figure that if in any given person's history...
7:59:34 PM Dude: if white people have represented, either directly or institutionally, a threat or an obstacle to their well-being...
7:59:48 PM Dude: That their interactions with one well-meaning and pro-active white person can or should undo all of that?
8:00:21 PM GIRL: it can't
8:00:27 PM GIRL: but it creates more racism
8:00:34 PM Dude: Nah.
8:00:45 PM Dude: It only gives license for people to exercise the racism they already had.
8:01:07 PM GIRL: nope
8:01:17 PM GIRL: i'm going all off personal experience
8:01:17 PM Dude: that….wasn't opinion, heh.
8:01:40 PM GIRL: i'm very much the opposite of racist
8:01:45 PM Dude: Heh.
8:01:57 PM Dude: You figure that you hold absolutely no racist views whatsoever?
8:02:11 PM GIRL: they're reactionary
8:02:17 PM Dude: Then they were there to begin with
8:02:23 PM Dude: because what you're reacting to has nothing to do with them being black.
8:02:23 PM GIRL: if they were
8:02:27 PM GIRL: they were dormant
8:02:30 PM Dude: Sure
8:02:35 PM Dude: And they are for a lot of people
8:02:38 PM Dude: which is part of the problem
8:02:45 PM Dude: because they operate subversively,that is unconsciously
8:02:49 PM GIRL: and i was very unaware of them unitl people began to point out my whiteness
8:02:53 PM GIRL: rather
8:02:55 PM GIRL: than i'm white
8:03:03 PM GIRL: and have no business helping blacks
8:03:04 PM Dude: and they're also why people have such a hard time starting the ialogue
8:03:11 PM Dude: dialogue, too
8:03:17 PM Dude: because the shit is painful
8:03:25 PM Dude: In many ways I do not envy white people's position
8:03:46 PM Dude: It is incredibly difficult, psychically, to own up to uncomfortable and deeply buried feelings
8:03:56 PM Dude: or institutions that are based on things that you did not consciously do
8:03:59 PM GIRL: that's not really the issue
8:04:06 PM Dude: I'm just saying that in general
8:04:24 PM Dude: It is the issue, maybe not for you (though I think it must be on some level)
8:05:10 PM GIRL: i stopped feeling bad about what happened with colored people in this country some time ago
8:05:13 PM Dude: To whatever extent that you're connecting their resistance to you, or even animosity towards you, with their blackness, then it is racist
8:05:29 PM GIRL: too, after i found out my ancestors were absent for the majority of it
8:05:37 PM Dude: Because all of that stuff has nothing to do with blackness, but with whiteness
8:05:51 PM Dude: whiteness is the enemy of people of color and of all the people enrolled in it, in spite of their benefits gained from it
8:06:07 PM GIRL: i'm in the business of helping people
8:06:14 PM Dude: Whether or not your ancestors ran from Jim Brown through white civil rights activists...
8:06:17 PM GIRL: not blacks, whites, french, or kenyan
8:06:33 PM Dude: It is still required that you own up to white privilege and what means in your re lationship to people of color.
8:07:31 PM GIRL: (as interesting as this is, i would like to bring it to a temporary close for dinnertime)
8:07:55 PM Dude: Next time you're back at the computer, take a look at this: very short, not as dense as the Alcoff article
8:07:57 PM Dude: baby steps I suppose
8:08:01 PM Dude: http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html
8:08:04 PM GIRL: that would be helpful
8:08:09 PM GIRL: i hope i haven't offended
8:08:22 PM Dude: Nah, I'm quite used to these kinds of conversations
8:08:36 PM Dude: I understand where people disconnect from the CRT dialogue, and know how to fill in the gaps, for the most part
8:08:49 PM GIRL: b/c when it comes down to it, i put precious little emphasis on race
8:09:03 PM Dude: So one question for you to walk away for now considering...
8:09:07 PM Dude: what you just said there...
8:09:08 PM GIRL: and feel the more everyone thinks about it, the worse off we all are
8:09:24 PM Dude: The mere ability to "put precious little emphasis on race"
8:09:27 PM Dude: is a dimension of white privilege.
8:09:37 PM GIRL: maybe yes, maybe not
8:09:40 PM Dude: No, definitely, heh.
8:09:46 PM GIRL: some of my black friends agree with me
8:09:47 PM Dude: because race does not affect you the way it does POCs
8:09:49 PM Dude: they're just ignorant.
8:10:04 PM Dude: or if not ignorant, unwlling to deal with the weight of this thing.
8:10:18 PM Dude: and another thing - what they say to you may not be the asme as what they say to each other.
8:10:22 PM GIRL: or they're happy with their lot in life, their careers, and their firneds
8:10:41 PM Dude: We do a lot of compromising in our dealings with white people, because it's easier that way; we can't go talking about whiteness at every juncture
8:11:06 PM Dude: but believe that your black friend #1 and black friend #2 have different conversations about race with eachother
8:11:08 PM Dude: than they do with you
8:11:26 PM Dude: If they have any awareness whatsoever.
8:11:37 PM GIRL: i'm going to ask
8:11:39 PM GIRL: but after i eat
8:11:40 PM GIRL: brb
8:11:42 PM Dude: ok
~ fin ~