Now, before we begin, I have some Fashion Tips:
1) Sit down. Trust me on this one.
2) Get either a really strong drink or a bucket to puke.
3) Remember to breathe.
4) You may want to schedule a lobotomy after this.
6:45:20 PM GIRL: so question
6:45:28 PM GIRL: you think blacks can be racist too?
6:45:44 PM GIRL: or rather, non-whites
6:45:49 PM Dude: Not in the same sense
6:46:13 PM Dude: well, "can" - literally? Sure. Can a black person or any POC hate white people simply for their skin or their hair or whatever?
6:46:19 PM Dude: Yeah, of course. Does it ever happen that way? I'd say no.
6:46:40 PM Dude: POC "racism" as it were, and especially "black racism" is always reactionary.
6:47:45 PM Dude: We (to add myself into this) do not hate white people for being white; we don't hate their language, their genes, their music, their art - our animosity is purely about how whiteness affects us politically and socially.
6:48:03 PM Dude: Whereas a white racist can simply look at a black person and make a judgment before that person says or does anything
6:48:10 PM Dude: or even based on a black person's name on an application
6:48:19 PM Dude: that's not how black animosity towards white people work
6:48:59 PM Dude: Are we suspicious and wary by default? Sure, based on strong historical precedents. But a white person can cast aside a lot of that doubt through their actions, their speech, within a short time
6:49:22 PM Dude: not always - because again, this relationship is deeply entrenched - but it's at least possible, because it's not based on any fundamental aspect of a white person's being
6:49:37 PM GIRL: i think for some colored people it is
6:49:43 PM Dude: It's not, I assure you.
6:49:59 PM GIRL: i have talked to blacks who dislike whites on the basis of being white
6:50:04 PM Dude: No you haven't, heh.
6:50:11 PM GIRL: are you familiar with the church of universal practical knowledge
6:50:31 PM Dude: You might have interpreted what they said as such, and maybe they even said it in an unambiguous way (which I doubt), but it's not what they meant.
6:50:36 PM GIRL: (you and i can also walk into the same room with the same people and have 2 very different experiences based on our color and gender)
6:50:55 PM Dude: That name is not familiar to me, though I may know of similar ideologies under a different name
6:51:15 PM Dude: yeah, ok, I am
6:51:23 PM Dude: familiar with the broader ideology, just not that name
6:51:26 PM GIRL: that all american blacks are from the 12 tribes of israel and everyone else works under a false ideology
6:51:53 PM Dude: Yep, they're connected to the Moorish Temple, the Nation of Islam, the Five Percenters, and the NGE by threads
6:52:13 PM GIRL: i'm pretty sure they referred to me as the white devil when i tried to ask them questions
6:52:24 PM Dude: NOI even explicitly called white people devils - but even they, on some level, understand that it's not about white people, but a system
6:52:34 PM Dude: again, though, understand...
6:52:55 PM Dude: That if there were no whiteness system in place, no such thing as white supremacy
6:53:03 PM Dude: these people would not harbor that animosity towards white people at all
6:53:08 PM Dude: it's reactionary
6:53:27 PM Dude: whereas white racism is based on the mere appearance of people and what that has been made to mean
6:53:39 PM Dude: further justified by pseudo-biological justifications
6:53:55 PM GIRL: but does that give them the right to come after people trying to break out of the system based on their skin tone?
6:54:05 PM Dude: IN what sense do you mean "come after" ?
6:54:11 PM GIRL: calling me a white devil
6:54:25 PM Dude: I don't think calling you a white devil is the most practical course of action, no.
6:54:31 PM Dude: It's not very nice, either.
6:54:54 PM Dude: But you have to understand that it's not personal against you, GIRL, but more a reaction to an institution that has been actively hostile towards them
6:55:31 PM Dude: as I mentioned tonight, it is often hard for people to separate individuals from the system
6:55:44 PM Dude: let me put it a different way, too
6:56:01 PM Dude: If you have all this psychological (or even physical) pain and social disenfranchisement on the basis of a black/white dichotomy
6:56:19 PM Dude: and you don't even understand it fully, just that "they" seem to be actively working against your interests
6:56:35 PM Dude: and you don't have a real analytical framework within which to examine these feelings
6:56:50 PM Dude: and then someone comes along and presents you with one - a very easy to understand one
6:56:58 PM GIRL: yup
6:57:01 PM Dude: "white people are devils, that's why..."
6:57:07 PM GIRL: same as with poor whites
6:57:11 PM Dude: exactly
6:57:19 PM GIRL: and them going to hispanics and saying "you took our jobs"
6:57:41 PM Dude: It's more related to that (the took our jobs bit) than it is to white racism
6:57:48 PM GIRL: but those attitudes on either end only perpetuate distrust and hate
6:57:56 PM Dude: If you ask a person who thinks of white people as devils
6:58:00 PM Dude: to explain the basis for that belief
6:58:05 PM Dude: everything they say will be political
6:58:13 PM Dude: if you ask a white racist why they feel a certain way about balck people
6:58:26 PM Dude: it's about black people themselves, not any system, nothing broad
6:58:47 PM Dude: there is something irredeemably wrong with black people for them
6:58:50 PM GIRL: it will be cultural
6:59:06 PM GIRL: and honestly, i feel the same way talking to racist blacks
6:59:08 PM Dude: biological, cultural, linguistic, physical, everything
6:59:11 PM GIRL: i could do anything
6:59:22 PM GIRL: but whatever it is won't matter b/c i'm white
6:59:39 PM Dude: It may be true that there is nothing you can do to change their minds, but that doesn't change the fact that the basis is different
7:00:00 PM Dude: and there is a foreseeable situation in which they could change their minds; take Malcolm X for example
7:00:05 PM Dude: he was one of those preaching about white devils
7:00:18 PM Dude: and all it took was for him to visit Mecca on his hajj to change that view
7:00:25 PM GIRL: but he also gave people a lot of much-needed empowerment
7:00:28 PM Dude: There was nothing white people in the U.S. could do to change his mind
7:00:37 PM Dude: it was something he had to find out for himself
7:00:41 PM Dude: self-determination
7:01:00 PM Dude: yeah I'm not talking about Malcolm as a broader figure, just his anti-white views at a certain point in his life
7:01:04 PM Dude: and how he came to terms with that
7:01:23 PM Dude: Malcolm was hyper-critical of white liberals in particular; the same people who felt as you do "no matter what I do, he'll still jsut hate me.."
7:02:23 PM Dude: Point is… there is a way to navigate the space between animosity towards whiteness and fellowship with white people
7:02:30 PM Dude: I know this because I exist in that space.
7:03:27 PM Dude: I personally think - and frequently - "Man, I hate white people". But I understand that my qualms are not with any individual, usually, but with the institution.
7:03:53 PM Dude: One more way to look at it...
7:04:05 PM Dude: Would it seem to be a contradiction, if I were to say to you..
7:04:36 PM Dude: I hate white people as a group, but I don't hate Irish, Polish, Russian, Italian, French, or Jewish people as groups?
7:04:47 PM GIRL: i'd call you a racist
7:04:54 PM GIRL: maybe a nationalist
7:04:55 PM Dude: Yeah, but you'd be incorrect.
7:05:22 PM Dude: Because I don't look at a white person and feel hatred.
7:05:39 PM Dude: I don't have any animosity towards the cultural traditions of any of those groups I named
7:05:55 PM Dude: and I don't know much about them biologically, nor do I care, since that's not the basis for any judgment I have
7:06:35 PM Dude: I have no automatic distaste or bias towards the way Irish people speak English, or Russian language as a whole.
7:07:03 PM Dude: Whatever Irish, Russian, Italian clothing styles may be, or whatever the music of their cultures are, I don't hate them, where I even know of them
7:07:24 PM Dude: And I'm certainly not a nationalist, since I unequivocally despise the country I live in.
7:07:38 PM Dude: about that, too...
7:07:59 PM Dude: kind of separate, but related… where a nation is ethnically homogenous for the most part, nationalism equates to racism
7:08:14 PM Dude: Again, my feelings are always reactionary
7:08:38 PM Dude: whenever I've thought or felt "man I hate white people…", it is never a default stance, it is always in response to something I read, hear, or personally witness
7:08:50 PM Dude: not witness, experience.
7:10:49 PM GIRL: so if you don't like the US, where would you rather live and why?
7:11:15 PM Dude: haven't figured that out yet, still researching, as I have some experience with moving out of the country and completely failing to sustain myself
7:11:27 PM Dude: but the current top candidate is Trinidad
7:14:11 PM Dude: and even that - my disillusionment with the U.S. - is reactionary
7:14:32 PM Dude: There is a prospective U.S. that I could come to love; I just don't foresee it becoming that in my lifetime, and it certainly is not that right now.
7:19:05 PM GIRL: you and i have very different viewpoints
7:19:16 PM GIRL: or at least very different takes
7:19:28 PM GIRL: i tend to be a little more optomistic
7:19:38 PM Dude: That may be a luxury you have that I do not.
7:19:47 PM Dude: And relates to privilege.
7:19:56 PM GIRL: heh
7:19:58 PM GIRL: i'm not so sure
7:20:04 PM GIRL: i'm a lot of things
7:20:06 PM Dude: I am. I can explain that, too.
7:20:17 PM Dude: Not your reasons for being optimistic
7:20:18 PM GIRL: privileged may not be one
7:20:23 PM Dude: no, you are.
7:20:28 PM Dude: By default because you can be enrolled in whiteness.
7:21:01 PM Dude: Let me switch contexts to make that a little easier to swallow.
7:21:11 PM Dude: I am privileged as a man in ways that you are not for being a woman.
7:21:25 PM Dude: I am privileged in ways as a heterosexual male in ways that a gay man is not.
7:21:48 PM Dude: But I am distinctly underprivileged on the basis of my "race".
7:22:18 PM Dude: and for that, and for what it has meant for me historically and personally, optimism is not something I usually can afford.
7:22:39 PM Dude: I think there may be a slight disconnect here in what is meant by privilege, too
7:23:23 PM GIRL: well
7:23:25 PM Dude: It does not refer to - necessarily - any tangible material wealth for every individual, though there is a relationship to such wealth
7:23:25 PM GIRL: rephrase
7:23:41 PM GIRL: compared to the people in camden, yes, i'm highly privileged
7:23:49 PM GIRL: i've graduated and have a computer in my house
7:23:54 PM Dude: not even talking about that
7:24:01 PM Dude: You're privileged even compared to Oprah Winfrey.
7:24:13 PM GIRL: doubtful
7:24:16 PM Dude: No, certainly.
~ TBC ~