Adventures of "Dude", Epilogue

Slightly, ahem, perturbed by his convo with "Girl,  "Dude" then talked to a white guy, posing this question:
"What would be your response if I were to say to you that I don't think there's anything you - you, personally - can do, that in the end you're still white, and that no matter how progressive you are in your thinking, no matter how closely we align in our politics and ideologies, that for your whiteness, we will always, to some extent, be enemies?"
To which the white guy responds:
I wouldn't hold a bit of it against you or anyone else who said the same. I'd understand that some things are beyond my control, and one of those things is the experience and perception of a person whose place in society and the history of which I will not ever understand the way they do. I'd never forget who I am in the system. But I wouldn't use that as an excuse to stop trying to end this shit within myself and towards others. I know that if enough whites do what they need to, then there's a real chance at getting this shit changed in a meaningful way. Furthermore, I understand that it means a degree of suspicious feeling towards whites that engage in anti-racism as well. I would say that all white anti-racists need to accept this and know that its a part of the human experience in this regard and that it doesn't exempt anyone from doing the right thing. Like I said, anti-racism work for whites should not be a charity, merit badge, or a pat on the back. It should be knowing that its the right thing and what helps them regain their humanity. In the end, though I would understand, acknowledge, and not question suspicion towards myself for being white, it wouldn't hinder me from always going against whiteness.

Comments

  1. Trivia sent to me by "Dude":

    Are you familiar with the website OKCupid? I was on there for about two months. I went out with 9 different women (this one I just emailed you about is the 10th, actually; she contacted me right before I deleted my profile), and none of them led to anything. One comes to the conclusion at that point that maybe it's them, not the women, yeah?

    ...Oh, all 10 of these girls were white, by the way. I've got all sorts of baggage around that, to do with my conditioning to the white beauty standard - which I rail against philosophically while still being beholden to it in what I find attractive. Not that I didn't reach out to some women of color, but it never got to the actual "go on a date" stage for one reason or another. Why me and these white girls were matched up to begin with was common views - mostly political, social, that sort of thing. And maybe some of them needed to prove to themselves that they were capable of dating a black man as proof of their non-racism? Maybe they just thought I was good looking and they wouldn't have to deal with any black/white baggage? Who knows? Bottom line, though, is that it didn't work out with any of them.

    One who had some potential - though the race convo had yet to happen - went out with me 3 times before deciding that I "made her uncomfortable", to the point that she ditched me mid-third-date, pulling me aside before we were to go with her friends (who we had been with all day) to say that she didn't want me to go, and left me, heh. Another one had potential due to her professional and personal proximity to Africa; she seemed to get a lot of things, but she and I just didn't work out on a personal level because she was kind of inaccessible due to being too busy. I "made her uncomfortable" too, when I took issue with the fact that she was talking to me (by text) about romantic prospects at some conference she was about to go to.


    Other than, "Hmmm" I'm not sure what to say.

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  2. Me either. I'm still recovering from the transcript lol.

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  3. Not that I didn't reach out to some women of color, but it never got to the actual "go on a date" stage for one reason or another.

    It's simmple, Dude. You don't want a WoC. You only want to bed and wed a WW. You're not attracted to WoC. They don't look as pretty to you as WW do. They don't stir your loins like WW do. They don't make you feel like WW do (like you're a "real man" or truly equal to Whites because if you're truly their equal, you should be able to date their women, to you, the ultimate prize). You ain't the first, last or only person in creation to be contradictory or hypocritical in their beliefs versus their feelings and actions.

    Dude, my advice would be to leave WoC the hell alone. Don't waste their time when you know from jump that nothing will come of it. All you're doing is making them feel like shit fore not being White. And we don't need your attentions, such as they are, anyway. We'll be just fine without you.

    Basically, you're looking for a female version of your White male friend above. Don't blame you. He sounds like a great human being. But most American White people PERIOD are no where near where you friend is in thinking about race. That includes the vast majority of WW. You'll just have to suck it up that most of them feel like ol' girl does, if they bother thinking about race at all. So either, you're going to have to greatly relax your standards and requirements in that area or resign yourself to a long, hard search.

    But don't fool yourself with all that vague "Gee, I don't know why things don't work out with me and WoC" shtick as if the reason is unknown. Just admit that you only want a WW and only a WW will do for you. You may not feel good about that, but you'll feel a lot less conflicted. And you'll focus your attentions on WW and leave WoC out your machinations.

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  4. "Dude" says that he's taking this as a sign to quit dating WW, but I wonder...if 10 in a row aren't working out, is there something else we're missing? I've seen "Dude", by the way; he really is quite good-looking and educated.

    Are WW starting to change their minds about BM? Because he's a dead ringer for a BM/WW couple. Or is it because he asks too much, racially speaking?

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  5. Well, he sounds like he's not telling everything. I smell a narcissist. He seems like he doesn't have a very well developed sense of self. A lot of young people don't, that would explain why his dating choices are not working out for him.

    Maybe he needs to be alone and figure himself out.

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  6. I wouldn't hold a bit of it against you or anyone else who said the same. I'd understand that some things are beyond my control, and one of those things is the experience and perception of a person whose place in society and the history of which I will not ever understand the way they do.

    cosigned.

    As far as the who-to-date thing, I believe Witchsistah hit the nail on the head. Really.

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  7. Dude" says that he's taking this as a sign to quit dating WW, but I wonder...


    I'm wondering too. Will he be able to especially since that seems to be who he is attracted to? I don't know. I think it's awfully difficult to change your desire. And it takes either enough bad experiences to turn you off to certain people or enough great ones to to you on to others.

    Are WW starting to change their minds about BM?

    Most WP are not interested in seriously dating or marrying BP period. And I speak as a BW married to a WM. But WW seem to be more sensitive to being seen as dating racists than WM are. But then men are more about following their romantic/sexual blisses no matter how politically incorrect than women are. Like another poster in this series said, WW seem to take dating BM like a survival course to see if they are "up" to it. Once they've satisfied themselves that they are by whatever criteria they choose, they're done with the whole idea.

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  8. Most WP are not interested in seriously dating or marrying BP period.

    Where I live, these WW want that wedding ring. They don't want a black boyfriend or baby daddy; they want a black husband. They want to walk down the aisle with the mug. But then again, these are Appalachians; they tend to be a bit more old-fashioned that way.

    Well, he sounds like he's not telling everything.

    10 white women in a row says something. Perhaps they sense a vibe, perhaps?

    Let me just let you know..."Dude" is one of "you." Folks are quite fond of him 'round the 'sphere. Some respect him even. I do not get the narcissist or autophobic vibe from him. Instead, I sense an "unknowing" from him.

    Any Fashion Tips for the bruh?

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  9. You might misunderstand what a narcissist is(many people do):
    Edinburgh International Encyclopaedia of Psychoanalysis (2006) defines narcissism as a condition that: “…revolves around the restoration of self-esteem and defensive attempts at healing the psychic wounds caused by a sense of shame or humiliation. The narcissist’s self-absorption is nothing but a strategic method of coping with psychic injuries to the self. Withdrawal from others is viewed as a defensive strategy for protecting the self against further shame and humiliation.”

    It also goes on to say that narcissists don't have a very well developed sense of self. With men, this is usually why their relationships fail time and time again. Why is he so attracted to white women? It's not just physical, he obviously feels that they validate him in some way WOC can't. And that goes back to him. What is the nature of his character that he needs to be validated by people who he has very little to nothing meaningful in common with? If it just had to do with his dick, it would be an easy problem to solve.

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  10. I didn't misunderstand. He and I have spoken in depth, and our conversation made me more curious about the women he went out with. IWO, I can see what he saw them. Now I'm trying to see what they saw/see in him.

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  11. Student,

    I understood you were talking about narcissists in the clinical sense. And you're right, they don't have a sense of self and are extremely sensitive about being touched by shame, guilt and humiliation. They just LOOK like their uber-confident and conceited. A narcissist will claim to be extremely intelligent to hide and smother the feeling that they are intellectual lightweights and if the other person ever found out how stupid they feel they really are, that other person would humiliate them with the knowledge.

    I ought to know, I've been in relationships with narcissists most of my life.

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  12. SotW,

    Psychoanalysis is bunk. Literally (but that's another story). As per the clinical definition of Narcissistic Personality Disorder (which may not even "exist" by clinical standards anymore--5 of 10 personality disorders got taken out of the DSM-IV), the diagnosis is generally behavior-oriented, which can't be judged from these conversational excerpts, but even so, I'd wager a guess that even a narcissist in the most casual sense of the word wouldn't be able to go this long without using "I" in a sentence. /takes off clinician hat

    They want to walk down the aisle with the mug.

    This made me laugh. But yes, I agree with Witchsistah wrt our neck of the woods and to yuppie White girls around my age. They want to fuck Black men. They don't want to be seen with them, generally don't want to date them, and sure as hell don't want to marry them. So if this guy is one of those "dead ringers" you describe (from that, I assume he got a degree from a PWI, lives/works around mostly White people, not a college athlete, and doesn't have a name that's "too Black"), I'm not surprised, because the girls I go to school with want the most stereotypical Tyrones and Jamals they can find (again, to fulfill the "Black buck" fantasy), not regular old Chris, Matt, or Josh.

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  13. Let me just let you know..."Dude" is one of "you." Folks are quite fond of him 'round the 'sphere. Some respect him even. I do not get the narcissist or autophobic vibe from him. Instead, I sense an "unknowing" from him.

    Most narcissists are very respected and people are fond of them. It's the only personality disorder that hides in plain site, and often it helps people rather than harms them.

    Take Josephine Baker for instance. White man after white man after white man. And all those marriages ended in divorce after divorce after divorce. And she tried to bleach her skin, and often burned herself, to look white. She picked photographers that lighted her so that she looked white.

    I don't think she actually wanted to "be" white.

    Why would she? Her fame largely rested on the fact that she was a talented and beautiful and flamboyant black woman. Her attitude was "You want a Jezebel, alright, I'll be a jezebel like you've never seen it before and you'll love me for it!" but her often expressed aspiration to be something that she clearly was not and never could be clearly reflected a deep seated insecurity and poorly developed sense of self. A tragic, cleverly disguised, flaw of character that affected all of her relationships.

    And none of her relationships worked out, even though she was very successful,and just adored, her funeral brought more mourners than that other famous Josephine, she was deeply unhappy in her personal life.

    I get what you're saying about about what they saw in him. Probably the same thing that Josephine Baker's husbands saw in her(with individual differences). He's intelligent and attractive,educated,economically stable: a catch! But not enough for them to stay with him

    But still he chose and purposefully went after these women, for a reason. Just like Josephine did( well more like she picked from what was available, which was alot, when someone kills themselves in front of you, just because they adore you, you could have anybody you want)

    Now I'm not saying he was wrong to do that, I just don't understand what he expected to happen? And again based off of what you say his choices are even more baffling,can't he have any woman he wants? Or most of them, why limit yourself to a type that is obviously incompatible with you?

    Lets see how it works out with WOC, since he said that's where he's going next.

    But before he goes anywhere else he needs to seriously reexamine himself and why he went after those girls in the first place.

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  14. Especially after he met with repeated failures. *shrugs* Strange.

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  15. I wasn't trying to uh malign him in any way. My sister has Narcissistic Personality Disorder, she's five years older than me and I adore her. She's so badass she has an MD, PhD(genetics,pathology) from Northwestern and she did this while raising a very talented seven year old girl, who is also smart and a ballerina. Does my sister get respect? Hell yeah she deserves it and has earned it. Do people like her? Hell yeah. She's always been Mrs. Varsity, popularity all her life.
    (I think if you knew my sister you wouldn't get the narcissist vibe off of her either.)

    When I say that narcissists don't have a very well developed sense of self I mean that...there is this void where her character should be. Like recently she's had her forth abortion, for the same problems that this "guy" was having with his women. For some reason... she is just attracted to men that she cannot depend on/don't care for her. But she could literally get any man she wants. She's gorgeous and everything a man would want. But her last boyfriends have all been white and she aborted all their babies. Why she would even let herself go so far as to get pregnant I don't understand, especially coming from someone who told me that "abortion is not a form of birth control" " no one should ever abort a baby past the first nine weeks"( her last two were in the fifth month.) For what ever reason she convinced herself that these men were... whatever she thought they were until she couldn't ignore their true nature any longer/or they left her, making her abort her pregnancies And this is a pattern with her.It started five years ago but it's revealed itself more progressively to be worse. She seeks out the same relationships/men over and over again.

    I know why the men wanted my sister, but why she wanted them? When she could have anybody she wanted and had a lot to choose from Narcissism is a spectrum disorder, and there are different types of narcissistic personalities.

    This dude might not be a severe one but he sounds to me like he is. I've heard conversations like the one he had with girl, that my sister had with her boyfriends. I lament the pain that she's in, but it's largely her own fault. What did she expect to get out of those relationships?

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  16. "But WW seem to be more sensitive to being seen as dating racists than WM are."

    Really? I'm not seeing that at all given the fact that WW avoid AM like the plague.

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  17. @hunter,

    You're right. I should have said "vis a vis dating Blacks."

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  18. hunter; i think the anti-AM bias by WW may be changing...possibly pretty signifigantly.

    asian cultural stuff-particularily japanese-i.e. manga, anime', video games, etc has generally made asians more dateable, interesting, whatever, to younger WW if they look right.

    i guess AM's major drawback w/respect to WW is that they tend to be shortish and on the small side.

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